China's electric car ahead of the curve
Chinese company BYD unveiled a new electric car with a plug-in battery that's supposedly two years ahead of the competition. Scott Jagow talks to Marketplace's Scott Tong, who got a first-hand look.
Visitors view a BYD F3DM electric vehicle in Shenzhen of Guangdong Province, China. (China Pictures/Getty Images)
More on Sustainability, International, Asia, Auto Industry
TEXT OF INTERVIEW
Scott Jagow: The real car story of the morning comes from China. A Chinese company unveiled a new electric car. And our man Scott Tong was at the unveiling. Scott, tell me about the car.
Scott Tong: Well, the car doesn't look spectacular around the outside, I have to tell you. They unveiled it and it looks like a Corolla. But the magic is on the inside. This car has a plug-in battery that is said to be two years ahead of the competition, because it's on the mass market here. And it's superior to what the Japanese and to what GM are developing now. It goes longer, farther per charge, and it charges up faster than the competition's.
Jagow: OK, so where can I get one?
Tong: You can come join me in China, that would be the quickest way. Or you can move to Scandinavia, which is where they're going to export some of them next year. Or if you hang around, this Chinese company called BYD wants to export them within a couple years to these larger markets, like North America or Europe.
Jagow: Scott, what evidence do we have that this really will be a mass-market seller?
Tong: We have $230 million of evidence in the form of investment from Warren Buffett. So that's good enough for most of us. Earlier this year, he decided to invest this much money, and what it seems like is he believes this company is on the cutting edge of this battery technology. And what's interesting about this Chinese company BYD is it started out as a battery company, making mobile phone rechargeable batteries or making laptop rechargeable batteries. And some executives have actually come out and said, you know, making a mobile phone is really hard, making a car is easier.
Jagow: Marketplace's Scott Tong, reporting from Hong Kong. Thanks.
Tong: OK Scott, thanks a lot.
Jagow: And by the way, the car goes for about $21,000.
Comments
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04/27/2009
There is, as usual, a lot of biased misinformed comment here, especially regarding batteries. Nobody in their right mind would release a car today using NiMh batteries; they are much too heavy and the power/weight ratio is far in excess of any lithium technology.
Lithium batteries have historically had drawbacks such as limited cycle life (approx. 300 charges) and temperature sensitivity, not to mention being very expensive. Nobody points out that BYD is a BATTERY company that, unlike Sony, makes lithium batteries that don't explode, makes far more lithium batteries than anybody else, and has pioneered new iron-based technology that is far superior to anything else to date.
The success or failure of any electric vehicle starts and ends with the battery, there is no way around that.
But there is still huge scope for bungling and mismanagement in the area of battery charging and the obvioulsy necessary concept of swapping stations. Greed will prevail as always and all participants will be touting their own proprietary charge-and-exchange system. The likelyhood of the universal battery needed to get this off the ground ever coming to fruition is very small. Everybody wants to get on the environmentally friendly bandwagon until they find they can't make a buck from it.
02/04/2009
To Scott Kilgore re:suggestion on swapping batteries. This is already happening in Israel. http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1705518,00.html
From schilling, WI, 01/27/2009
I may have the answer as to how to charge the batteries in a electric car when it is moving. NO FOOLING. who can I CONTACT, PLEASE REPLY
From Olney, MD, 01/12/2009
Currently a rooftop PV solar arrays would not be able to generate enough power to recharge an electric car's battery in one afternoon. I agree that a NiMH battery pack instead of a lithium ion pack could make sense for the Chevy Volt. What I don't like is that Lithium ion can overheat. BYD is useing LiFePO4 batteries which reportedly don't overheat. The main challenge for BYD in importing to the USA - would be safety standards (airbags, rollover, Electrionic stability Controls). BYD F3dm is essentially a zero emission vehicle so getting it to pass the emission requirements should be easy.
BYD has plans to roll out another production PHEV called the F6dM
and a EV called the E6 too. I'm, not sure about Warren Buffett - is he going to help BYD enter the USA market or is he just looking to be bought out? He's a crafty fox.
From Tucson, AZ, 01/05/2009
Why not install a solid contoured solar panel for the roof of a car so it would charge batteries constantly !
From Worcester, MA, 12/26/2008
I am wondering how electric vehicles work under extreme weather conditions such as we experience here in the Northeast. For example, how efficient is an electric car when the outside temperature drops well below zero Fahrenheit? I also want to see one rocked out of a snowbank or operated gingerly on black ice. They may be great, but I still want to see.
From Farmdale, OH, 12/25/2008
I think there is way, way to much hype about this vehicle. As a engineer who has dealt with Chinese auto parts manufacturing, I strongly feel there is a high probability that this car will fall short of all of the boasting the manufacturer (That the media is all to willing to entertain). As is the case with the Chinese domestic car maker "Cherry Motor Corp", China has yet to prove that it can make a decent quality "conventional" vehicle, let alone an reliable electric car. The Chevrolet Volt could be rushed to market in 6 months, but GM is choosing to pick the battery and drive train a part with a fine tooth comb before putting it into production..... This is a car that GM will be putting a substantial warranty on (50 K - 100 K ??), not to mention the company's reputation.
From TX, 12/18/2008
Just in case anyone is still paying any attention to this story...
I noticed a couple of comments that deserved a response. First, Chevron did buy the patent to the Nimh batteries that GM was using. It should not matter at this time though. Several battery manufacturers have made Nimh batteries that are better at this point.
So why doesn't GM just use the existing Nimh battery technology? After all GM is getting the Nimh batteries that they are using in the large SUVs from a US company, Cobasys.
My cynical view is that Wagoner has gotten so stuck on the idea of using lithium ion batteries because they will not work properly in a car (at least not in the near future). The lithium ion batteries have an Achilles Heel. That problem is lifespan. In my work as a wildlife photographer, I have found lithium ion batteries start to deteriorate after about 3-4 years. And they do this whether you use them or not. While an overly simple explanation, the chemistry in the cells breaks down.
On the other hand, nickel-metal hydrate (Nimh) batteries have been shown to last over 10 years with proper conditioning in a variety of applications.
So why not just build the Volt with Nimh batteries?
It is certainly not the range. A 40 mile range could be easily handled with any battery system.
A relatively small Nimh pack could handle this requirement quite easily. And they could easily outfit a Malibu as a series hybrid.
As it stands now, it looks like Ford's Fusion Hybrid would almost do this, and with a 47 mph top speed. All Ford would have to do is add a charging plug and circuit.
As for GM, my cynical view is that they are praying that this technology doesn't become viable because it might lead to all electric cars with reliable battery systems. Since GM really does make reliable and effective brakes and electrical systems, there really wouldn't be much maintenance. Their dealers would hate it.
Second, Matthew Louie "was wondering if the battery technology can be designed in such a way so that when the juice is low I can just drive down to the "battery station" to change out the battery."
Actually, in my work as an industrial designer, I came up with an idea to use interchangeable battery packs for electric cars that would slide in and out on a rail system using a special forklift at a "refueling station" about 10 years ago, after seeing what GM did with the EV1.
On a trip, you would have a service agreement on your battery pack, which would essentially be leased. You would pull into the station. They would quickly pull out your battery and replace it with a fully charged battery.
They would test and charge your battery and put it in another car. You would pay a small fee for charging.
The service station would test the battery, replace any bad cells or control circuits as a part of the service agreement.
I envisioned three standard battery pack sizes as a way to make electric cars practical for long distance highway use.
An efficient station should be able to change packs quicker than fueling 20 gallons of fuel. With an automated system and standardized battery slots on cars and light trucks, it could even be a self service operation.
If anyone in industry or government is interested in this concept, please contact me through my website ScottKilgorePhotography.com, or just steal the concept and develop it. I'd just be happy if a consortium between government and industry was able to implement this system.
BTW, in my work as an industrial designer, I did basic research on epoxy and epoxy-phenolic resin systems, composite product development, and products design and manufacturing for food service and restaurants, among other projects.
SK
From los angeles, CA, 12/16/2008
reading some of the comments up top I see how it can change the whole industry and what it would mean to their survival. Besides the suppliers loosing on their end. As another industry ends so does another rise. Was wondering if the battery technology can be designed in such a way so that when the juice is low I can just drive down to the "battery station" to change out the battery.
From Gilbert, AZ, 12/16/2008
I like this car...and I understand why it's going to take a while to get it here. I doubt that China has as many safety regulations on their cars, so it's probably going to take them until 2011 just to get the cars to pass crash testing in the U.S. Second, all of that engineering will probably add considerable weight to the car, potentially limiting its performance. I wonder what kind of battery is being used in this car? I read somewhere that Chevron has the patent for Nickel Metal Hydride batteries, which the EV1 used...
I'm willing to bet that Warren Buffett invested in electric cars over there instead of here because China might not have as strong a lobby to protect oil interests, cars that require boatloads of maintenance, etc... Also, if they are already making the advanced technology and there is no guarantee that Detroit ever will (so I'm a cynic), go with the forward-thinking company (even though the Big 3 are on sale at a deep discount right now).
Just my two cents...
12/15/2008
Does anyone know what the song is that plays right after this interview? It is stuck in my head and it isn't listed in the music section of todays broadcast.
From Newberry, MI, 12/15/2008
My question is why didn't Warren Buffet invest in the electric car here in the USA!!
From TX, 12/15/2008
The news media is saying that this Corolla sized car is about 2 years ahead of the competition. But hold on a minute.
According to BYD chairman Wang Chuan Fu, it is supposed to hit the US and European markets in 2011.
Too bad GM dismantled the EV1. It was a car that was ahead of its time.
Still, the big difference between BYD's car and the VOLT or the GM EV1 is that they look like they really intend on selling it. And why not, this company has no status quo to deal with.
When GM brought out the EV1, they got a fight from the dealers, who depend upon service to make a profit. They got a fight from oil companies, who plastered ads all over California talking about how it just wouldn't work. The internal combustion engine people at GM didn't want this thing around. (It should be noted that Toyota was not too crazy about their RAV 4 EV either.)
Just looking at the introductory brochure for the EV1 gives you some idea of how terrified some service departments and the oil companies could be. There was a long list of things the car didn't have (or wouldn't need).
Those included, or should I say, didn't include:
no engine
no valves
no pistons
no timing belts
no crankshafts
no starter
no tuneups
no unleaded
no clutch
no exhaust
no muffler
no smog checks
no dipsticks
no oil changes
A GM dealer looking at this list would potentially see nothing but red, that is, red ink.
What made it worse was that the car worked. ("Owners" reported typical ranges up to 160 miles out of their EV1's. The RAV4's still out there seem to be doing well.)
But the EV1 was developed and brought at a time when gas was $1.00 a gallon (or less). Customers were not going into dealerships to get a thrifty car. They wanted trucks and V8's, and power. And they did until very recently. And many of us were buying the same things from Nissan and Toyota. Toyota and Nissan both produce more SUV models than car models. Even the Corolla grew from a small car to a rather roomy mid-size car due to this desire for bigger, and forget about the gas milage.
The EV1 simply came out at the wrong time.
Of course, BYD's car is supposed to have a small gas engine, so you can depend upon it needing service. If it is built to the same standards as the engines, motor-scooters, and motorcycles that I have seen, the Japanese, Koreans, and the American manufacturers have little to worry about.
At least for a few years...
SK
From barkhamsted, CT, 12/15/2008
It may be a while before the US sees one. Our legislators have built a nice moat around the auto producers.
How long an electric car takes to charge is not so much a function of the battery as of the power available where you plug it in. You have to put back the watt/hours you took out. the 'normal' 120v 15amp household circuit is less than 2 kilowatts/hour. A really efficient electric car might go 4 miles/KWH. (Mine goes 2! http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059 ) So 100 miles would take 25 hours of charging.
A 50amp 240v stove circuit would be 12KW. Charge in 4 hours after your 100 mile trip.
A key thought is how often will you actually make a 100 mile trip? If you are going somewhere, can you plug in while you are there? Most folks will rarely have to charge batteries that are fully discharged.
From Colorado Springs, CO, 12/15/2008
So, what kind of mileage does it get and how long does it take to recharge?
From OH, 12/15/2008
Unbelievable! Why don't the US automakers get a license to manufacture agreement from BYD and make those cars here?
Consumers will figure out how to recharge their cars. China has about the same climate as USA so the batteries should work, and most people just drive to work and the market.
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