What sets burger chain In-N-Out apart
Stacy Perman, author of a new book on the Western U.S. fast-food chain In-N-Out, talks with Kai Ryssdal about what makes the burger joint different from its competition.
In-N-Out Burger sign (Rich & Becky)
Stacy Perman
TEXT OF INTERVIEW
Kai Ryssdal: I don't know if you saw the video today, but President Obama and Vice President Biden went out to eat for their weekly lunch date today. A burger joint in Northern Virginia. We don't really get a lunch break here, what with getting the program on the air and all, so last week after work some of us decided to grab a burger not far from my house at a local chain called In-N-Out Burger.
RYSSDAL: Hi.
COUNTER GIRL: Hi. How are you doing today?
RYSSDAL: I'm good, thanks. I would like a cheeseburger animal style, fries and a root beer. And my friend here?
STACY PERMAN: I'll have a grilled cheese animal style and a diet coke.
COUNTER GIRL: All right, that'll be $8.43 please.
My lunch date was Stacy Perman. She writes for Businessweek magazine. And she's got a new book about In-N-Out. The company's privately held. Relatively small. Just a couple of hundred stores in four states -- all out West. But it is something of a cultural marker. The menu's pretty simple: burgers, fries, sodas and shakes. Perman points out though that you can mix it up. Like that animal-style burger. Mustard cooked into the meat with pickles and grilled onions.
PERMAN: Something that a lot of people don't know about is the animal-style french fries. You might have to go to food rehab afterwards. It's not a healthy choice.
But broken into parts the ingredients, Perman says, are as healthy as you're gonna get for fast food.
PERMAN: They have their own butcher line. They make sure their beef patties are fresh. They make them themselves and deliver them to the stores. They bake their own buns. The fries are handcut, and everything is made to order. They also treat their employees incredibly well. If you're a part-time worker today you make $10 an hour. And store managers that meet their goals, the company takes them on first-class trips abroad to Europe, Caribbean cruises. They're very generous.
Ryssdal: I'm definitely in the wrong line of work. Tell me about the couple that started this chain.
PERMAN: That would be Harry and Esther Snyder. She was the daughter and grand-daughter of coal miners. And he was the son of Dutch immigrants that didn't, you know, make a lot of money during their lives. And he was the classic entrepreneur. At the time when they started In-N-Out in 1948 in Baldwin Park, Calif., that was the time of the car hops and the big drive-ins and the kitschy architecture. But the Snyders didn't have a lot money, so they only had a very small plot of land with no indoor seating even. So Harry was an electronics enthusiast, and he came up with this two-way speaker phone, which is basically the prototype for what became today's drive-thru.
Ryssdal: There is a very strong corporate culture here, too. I mean, they are very set in their ways. And how they do things and what they want this store to be.
PERMAN: Definitely. That started from the very beginning with the Snyders. Their business philosophy was based on three words: quality, cleanliness and service.
EMPLOYEE: How was everything guys?
RYSSDAL: It was delicious. As always. Thank you.
EMPLOYEE: You want me to get rid of that? Are you all good?
RYSSDAL: You know, I'm going to pick at the fries for a while. Thanks.
PERMAN: I mean how many fast-food restaurants do you know that the wait staff comes to you and sees if you need anything and wants to clean up after you?
Ryssdal: That's a good point. How involved were the Snyders once this place got big?
PERMAN: Micro-managers. Particularly Harry. I mean in the beginning he actually would go to his meat purveyors, stand over him, and watch him cut up the beef to make sure he got what he ordered. And Esther until her dying days, she would have her driver take her to the drive-thrus, wouldn't announce herself, order a burger, sit in the parking lot, take it apart, make sure it was constructed correctly. She was really involved.
Ryssdal: You know when I moved out here I discovered two things that you couldn't get back East. One was Trader Joe's, which you now can, the other one is In-N-Out burgers. For those guys in New York and on the East coast whose mouths are watering right now at the prospect of a hamburger animal style, what are the prospects for more expansion to other parts of the country and the world?
PERMAN: Well, here's the thing, they've expanded slowly for a few reasons. One is the fact that, as I said, they have butchers that create the beef, they have these commissaries. They don't open a store outside a 500-mile radius from one of these commissaries, so they can deliver the fresh goods on a daily basis. They could go to New York. But let's put it this way, they opened their fourth state, Utah, 60 years after opening, so that's not anybody's Sherman's March on Atlanta, by any stretch of the imagination.
Ryssdal: Well, Stacy Perman, thank you so much for your time.
PERMAN: Thank you.
Comments
Comment | Refresh
From Simi Valley, CA, 09/21/2009
As an employee, I just wanted to say that INO is one of the greatest companies you could start off working for. The allegations in some of these comments are ridiculous.
From san jose, CA, 07/02/2009
Some of the comments on here are not well researched. In-n-Out has great healthcare and wages. The managers make over 100K a year AND get those trips! 10$ is what the 16 year olds make! They are christian but they don't force it on anyone.. the 70s? Things change with the times. The meat is very high quality stuff you can't get in stores! They may not be grass fed but the quality is still there. They are changing their cups and bags to be eco friendly. The company has no problems with minorities!! are you kidding me? The idling cars are a problem but cars idle at every fast food place across the country! If it matters so much go to each car and tell the driver not to be so lazy.
From Los Angeles, CA, 06/13/2009
This is an EXCELLENT ARTICLE. N'Out Burger is an A+ company for a good reason. The owners put into practice the Golden Rule. They treat their employees and customers the WAY that they would want to be treated ... just like the Bible teaches! It's THAT simple, people! The flip side of the coing is GREED, which is what most businesses PRACTICE = mistreatment of employees (low low wages) and over-priced food.
05/07/2009
I have never been to an In N Out that asked how my meal was because I'd tell them each time I got my fries "well done" they never come in lengths longer than an inch. To maintain their clean image they also make sure to order their paper products in 0% post consumer content just so they can have white napkins to reinforce their clean image. Real eco friendly no? Seriously I'm surprised this article even made it on the radio. It's still the same patty and watery lettuce as mcdonalds. It's just presented a different way with catchy lines like "never frozen" Go grass fed and you'll never go back
From Lake Arrowhead, CA, 05/07/2009
I read Ms. Perman's book on In n Out and I would highly recommend it. It's an interesting and well-researched account of a heart-and-soul business and its modest founders, the Snyders. After reading it, it's clear what sets In n Out apart from the rest. It's a true American success story, one built on hard work and high standards.
From SF, CA, 05/07/2009
I used to eat In n Out a couple of times a month until I saw that they buy the lowest grade of beef - the same beef that was recalled several months ago (see below). It only goes to this chain and school lunches in CA. Also, I made a personal switch to grass pastured meat, but that's a different personal choice. I do miss In n Out, and think the food tastes pretty solid, but I stand my ground on the beef issue for both reasons.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/food/2008-02-17-slaughterhouse-recall_N.htm
From PA, 05/06/2009
Almost a decade ago, I dated a man who lived outside of LA. The first thing I did after leaving LAX was head straight to In and Out. Though the relationship ended, I have warm tasty memories of In and Out Burger...I still miss those burgers...not the guy though.
05/06/2009
Hello Everyone,
I am surprised that this company is "successful", aside from the trend for people to eat greater quantities of in-expensive fast food in order to save money. I believe this company should not have been featured, due to their racist practices. Just within the last 2 years they settled out of court for their refusal to promote African Americans (and likely other ethnic minorities) and their use of the N-word in meetings. I know of this incident personally and this information is documented in California, although national news did not feature any articles.
Best to you all!
From CA, 05/06/2009
Lj R -
Ten bucks is far from the $6.75 an hour most fast-foodies earn in this state...
From Lunenbug, MA, 05/06/2009
I can't believe that you left out one of the major cultural contributions the In n Out burger has made to out society: The Big Lebowski! It plays a major role in a couple of scenes in the movie and its mentioned in many repeatable lines from the movie. I just wish that I could have heard Steve Buscemi say the famous line "Those are good burgers, Walter!" at the end of the segment.
From Salinas, CA, 05/06/2009
I heard the radio show. There was some talk about expanding to the East Coast. While In-N-Out probably won't expand to the East Coast any time soon, Five Guys has a similar approach. Burgers made with buns which are received every other day from specific vendors, the potatoes come from specific places. The place is listed on the wall for all to see.
I had a great experience there and recommend trying Five Guys.
From Cincinnati, OH, 05/06/2009
I try to visit the west coast once per year, and on every trip I make it a point to eat at In-N-Out. It is the only burger I will eat. I can taste the freshness in every bite.
However, I do agree that the popularity of the restaurant does cause issues with seating inside and idling cars at the drive through clogging up the parking lot and adjoining streets. I do wonder though if the company were to stray from the original design, would the menu prices need to be increased, therefore defeating the purpose of expansion?
From Vallejo, CA, 05/06/2009
One little tid bit about In N Out that you failed to mention or even allude to is the fact that the founders are fundamentalist Christians. So much so that that when I was living in LA 15 or 20 years ago he personally did an In N Out radio commercial during Christmas where he strongly suggested that one should accept Jesus as their savior. Maybe in Alabama-but in LA!-and on KROQ no less! Although the burgers were good-I never went back. Rob in Vallejo
From Oakland, CA, 05/05/2009
While I enjoyed this story, I was really turned off from trying the famous In and Out Burger. The manager sounded like she was reading from a script and honestly, if anybody believes that a worker would prefer a trip to Europe or Florida over a decent paycheck with good healthcare - give me a f'ing break... And $10 an hour is not what I'd call a living wage, period.
This is just another enterprise which tries to make a ton of money by paying people as little as possible. All that quality control stuff is just PR - and only too obvious re the stilted script like answers this gal gave.
Tiresome. But the story itself was good.
From West Chester, OH, 05/05/2009
As an Easterner who travels to California fairly often, I really appreciate that there is an IN n Out Burger about a half mile from LAX and that my direct flight lands at 11:00 a.m. - Just in time for lunch.
Your story mentioned burgers 'Animal Style'. You forgot to mention that this selection is not on the menu. In fact there is a 'secret' menu and that should have been part of the story, especially since this is part of the allure of In N Out...
BTW, the last time I was in California my wife asked me to bring home a single cheeseburger and fries - please warn your listeners, this is not a good idea.
From CA, 05/05/2009
While their food is undeniably good (for fast food), I have been avoiding In-n-Out because I question whether their good, e.g., decent treatment of employees, outweighs their bad.
Their past focus on the drive through customer resulted in small footprint outlets with environmentally unfriendly long lines of idling vehicles which have nowhere to wait but on the adjoining public street, blocking access to neighboring businesses, impairing traffic flow, etc. Thus, their business model seemed designed to shift part of their cost -- acquiring adequate real estate -- by burdening others.
Even their newer sit-down facilities seem consistently undersized, so that customers are incented to continue using the drive through.
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