Taking Stock
Taking Stock: Rethinking consumerism
The recession seems to have put brakes on over-consumption, at least for now. But how can the economy grow if people don't spend money? Kai Ryssdal talks with Gus Speth, Yale's dean of environmental studies, about how to change our consumer society.
James Gustave Speth, dean of School of Forestry and Environmental Studies at Yale University. (Yale University)
More on Spending, Sustainability
TEXT OF INTERVIEW
KAI RYSSDAL: I don't know if he said it first, but Adam Smith probably said it best. Consumption, he wrote in "The Wealth of Nations," is the sole end and purpose of all production. The only reason to make something is to have someone else buy it.
Americans have been really good at that consumption part for decades. It's been a huge driver of our economic growth. But it's making things a little tricky, too, as we try to climb out of this recession. Because those old habits we had -- of buying whatever we wanted, whenever we wanted -- aren't really sustainable.
As we continue our series "Taking Stock" today -- occasional conversations with people who can give us the long view of our current economic situation -- Gus Speth. He's the dean of the School of Forestry and Environmental Studies at Yale.
Welcome to the program.
GUS SPETH: Hi, Good to be here.
RYSSDAL: Do me a favor, would you, just as a baseline and characterize U.S. consumption for us.
SPETH: Well, we have affluenza, don't we? I mean, until this crisis hit us, we were a shop-till-you-drop society. And, uh, maybe one thing the crisis will bring is some . . . an end to that, in the best of all worlds.
RYSSDAL: Well, how might that happen? Because if you read the classic economic texts, they'll tell you the only way to grow is to consume.
SPETH: Depends on what you consume, doesn't it? There are lots of things in our society that we need to grow. We need to grow health care, we need to grow education, we need to grow infrastructure, we need to grow an entirely new energy system. But what we probably don't need to grow is the volume of our stuff. We now have . . . the square-footage of the self-storage industry in the United States would now cover all of San Francisco and the entire island of Manhattan combined.
RYSSDAL: So what does a recovery that changes our consumption habits look like?
SPETH: The great hope I have is that we won't just recover. That we will reinvent. That we will change the nature, to a large degree, of what our economy is all about. What I would like to see, personally, is some set of policies put in place which would have the effect of both curtailing our consumption, and at the same time improving Welfare. So what things would do that? Certainly, taking more time in leisure, having a shorter work week, longer vacations. Greater labor protection, greater job security. Some restrictions on advertising. The Swedish ban on advertising directed at children is something we should consider shortly. You know, really thoughtful trade agreements that didn't give away our jobs and our environment. There are things we need to be striving for, if we are going to build an economy that really does sustain people and communities and doesn't see these things as just what might happen if we're lucky, as a consequence of undifferentiated mere GDP growth.
RYSSDAL: Well, for that to be true, though. For us to be able to do all those things that you'd like us to do -- and lord knows I'd like to do them too -- seems to me that the economic return for whatever new investments we're making has to be greater than the economic return on buying widgets from Wal-Mart at a discount.
SPETH: Well, we might not grow as fast. And I personally think that there are diminishing returns to growth. There are diminishing returns to affluence. And when you get a country that's as rich as ours, it really becomes a matter of spending what we have wisely. And all of my adult life I've heard people say, "You know, we need to keep growing or we'll face the distribution issue in our society. And we kept growing and distribution of income and resources and assets got worse. So, I think it's time to worry about some of these other things, and not so much about just growing the aggregate economy. And gives us the time to do things in life that really matter. We're rich enough for that now.
RYSSDAL: What we're trying to do, then, and this is no easy task, is change human behavior. Because, for many years in this country, it's been all about how much stuff you have.
SPETH: Well, I think some changes in human behavior would be welcomed by a lot of people in our country. We now have seen the birth in recent years of this new field of positive psychology -- where the psychologists aren't studying deranged behavior but are studying what makes people happy. What brings satisfaction to life. And one of the things they found, consistently, is that the more materialistic, the more consumption-oriented people are, the less happy they are, the less satisfied they are. In our country, in the United Kingdom, in Japan, GDP per capita has gone up and up and up but the level of life satisfaction has been stable. And what really makes people happy is warm, close, personal relationships. And giving, rather than getting.
RYSSDAL: You are in a position where people probably come to you, people of influence come to you and say, "Listen, I'm working on a new policy for this. Or I'm going to see Senator XYZ on this issue. How do you translate these thoughts that you have into political action. Because that really is the discussion we're having here, right?
SPETH: The truth is that I think these changes right now have to come from people, from communities -- sort of bottom-up changes. I don't think our political system is . . . They've got their hands full, right, on things that just desperately need to be done, like getting people back employed, things like universal health care. You know, the sad thing about this crisis, though, is that what I and a lot of other people have been advocating in a way is a new American Dream, a less materialistic American Dream that is more sustainable environmentally, and more family friendly, and community friendly. But those are voluntary decisions, decisions made out of people's empowerment. And what we have instead is a kind of a forced collapse. You know, the crisis does present some opportunities, but it's certainly not what people have wanted to see, the way people have wanted to see it come about.
RYSSDAL: Gus Speth is the dean of the school for forestry and environmental studies at Yale University. Dean Speth, thanks a lot for your time.
SPETH: Thank you, Kai.
Comments
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From Fallon, NV, 07/19/2009
Jerry,
We need more social programs!
All I needed to tell my daughter all these years was it is not very important to work hard to get ahead and reach your goals.
Try if you want to dear, if you don't want to that's alright too, somebody in America will pay your way.
Heck, if you want to have a kid or two somebody that worked harder than you will pick up that tab also.
From Las Vegas, NV, 07/18/2009
Ah, yes, Jerry, despite that you're sending mixed signals (are you working hard and saving or are you mostly unemployed?) the picture's coming clear. You say you don't buy much because you don't need much and therefore you live on the cheap and you STILL manage to pay your share. Tell me Jerry, what is your share? The U.S. Tax Policy Center estimates that "for 2009, 43% of tax units (that's people like you, Jerry) will have no income tax liability or will have a negative income tax liability, meaning the government will actually pay them" (cnn money.com). It's seems pretty clear that if you don't work much and you don't spend much then you don't really contribute anything at all. Those of us who work hard and spend more pay 33% of our income ($66,000 for me and my wife last year) to help fund the infrastructure, programs and social services that people like you, Jerry, benefit from. Now we have an administration that not only embraces this frightening economic (and social) ideology, but is vigorously advancing it in the political arena.
From PA, 07/18/2009
To Clayton and Greg: Figured comments like your's would surface. It's really work hard and SAVE instead of buying a whole lot of chrome plated stuff, drive old cars,etc. Living as cheap as possible and still paying my share!!!
From PA, 07/18/2009
To Clayton and Greg: Figured comments like your's would surface. It's really work hard and SAVE instead of buying a whole lot of chrome plated stuff, drive old cars,etc. Living as cheap as possible and still paying my share!!!
From Fallon, NV, 07/16/2009
Jerry, mabey you wouldn't have spent a 3rd of your life unemployed if you could write a sentence without repeating a word twice ( have have )
You sound like another well educated liberal.
From Las Vegas, NV, 07/16/2009
Jerry: if it's true what you say, that you've spent a third of your life unemployed or underemployed, no wonder you're happy--the rest of us are paying for your basic goods, services and what you like to think of as "rights". If more people maintain this mentality, Americans will continue to lose their freedoms.
From PA, 07/16/2009
So what drives consumerism? Too much productivity, in other words too much work. We are brainwashed to waste time at mindless tasks. I have have spent a third of my life un or under employed and consider myself the happiest person I know of!! Please comment...Thanks
From Newburgh, NY, 07/15/2009
A ban on advertising to children would be a monumental leap in the right direction! As a teacher and parent I have observed first hand the harmful effects marketing and consumerism have had on children's healthy development.
Geralyn Bywater McLaughlin
empoweredbyplay.org
07/14/2009
Hoorah for James Speth! How refreshing to hear someone interviewed who is willing to articulate the fundamental reversal we need in our culture (yes—we followed these economic policies until about fifty years ago). Why isn't Speth in the Yale School of Management ("educating leaders for business and society") where he belongs? Or, better yet, an advisor to President Obama?
From Madison, CT, 07/14/2009
Gus Speth hinted at it. Kai Ryssdal oozed excitement for it. Some of the commenters (Merantza, Haderlein, Burke) pushed harder. Aldous Huxley wrote a book about it, _Brave New World_. What is that? Government enforced social engineering!
"And that," put in the Director sententiously, "that is the secret of happiness and virtue - liking what you've got to do. All conditioning aims at that: making people like their inescapable social destiny."
- Aldous Huxley, Brave New World, Ch. 1
From Las Vegas, NV, 07/14/2009
Here is NPR doing what it does best: sounding the call to facilitate the ushering in of the collective state. A responsible reporter sans ideological slant would have provided the rest of Adam Smith's quote: "Consumption is the sole end and purpose of all production; and the interest of the producer ought to be attended to." Another of Smith's quotes from the same book: "Man was made for action, and to promote by the exertion of his faculties such changes in the external circumstances both of himself and others, as may seem most favourable to the happiness of all." Clearly, these are capitalist ideals completely at odds with the Yale dean's bloviated rhetoric on anti-consumerism. Interestingly, Mr. Speth's "long view" of our current economic situation mirrors that of the CPUSA (if this seems outrageous, visit their site). The professor's suggestion that Americans increase Welfare, take more time in leisure, have a shorter work week and longer vacations flies in the face of logic. Perhaps he might consider attending economics 101 as a student at the Gateway Community College right there in New Haven. Kai, next time you want the "long view" on our current economic situation, find someone whose mind isn't clouded by the utopian ideal.
From Harvard, IL, 07/13/2009
Wow. The interview with Dean Speth blew me away. It reminded my of Annie Leonard's "Story of Stuff" - not only do we not need all the "stuff," but our planet also cannot sustain it. Just imagine, healthier & happier people, reduced dependence on resource consumptive forms of energy, and more vacation time! It isn't science fiction, it could be our future, if more people choose empathy over greed.
From Monroe, MI, 07/13/2009
Economic growth without consumption? Umm... was Gus absent the day they taught economics in economics class? In what galaxy does more time off result in both job security and economic growth? But, then, growth really isn't the goal, is it? At least Gus is brave enough to utter the left's ultimate goal out load: wealth reduction. The good news is that with Obama at the helm, we're well on the way.
From Northampton, MA, 07/13/2009
Kitten on the Kibble
I’ve been telling this story for years, ever since I saw it with my own eyes. I was visiting some friends whose family cat had had kittens. They were recently weaned and just starting on dry food. There were five or six of them, gathered around their large bowl piled high with Kibble, and there was one of them spread-eagled across the top of the pile. All its claws were out and it was spinning in circles, hissing at all its brothers and sisters.
I wondered at the time how it might have learned such behavior at such a young age. Was it the first of the litter, arrogating the rights of the first-born? Was it the runt of the litter struggling for ascendancy? Is greed innate, even without scarcity? Is this just a Darwinian survival trait?
As I observe the mal-distribution of wealth in our modern society I see many “Kittens on the Kibble” wherever I look. I want to ask them “How much is enough?” but that would be rude. I think. Maybe you could?
From Norfolk, VA, 07/13/2009
At last...I am so glad to finally hear someone speak up and say that growth and consumerism are not necessarily the absolute keys to a stable economy. Thank you James Speth! We CAN re-invent ourselves as a country and a populace that is not so mesmorized by the siren call of consumption. Do we REALLY need all the stuff that is constantly thrown at us in stores and on TV. Step back, and ask yourselves what is REALLY important. American Indian Chief Dan George "It is more important to have A LITTLE of what is good, than to have MUCH of what is not good." and can offer no sentiment truer than his words.
From MA, 07/13/2009
We need to grow HEALTH CARE??? ARE YOU KIDDING ME. If Gus Speth thinks we need to give the medical industrial complex more than its already 17% of GDP and double the CPI inflation rate he needs health care on his brain. Or he needs to stop smoking whatever he's been smokin'. Health care workers are among the most afflicted with affluenza. Just check any line of doctors' parking spaces.
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