Allegations against U of Phoenix persist
For-profit schools such as the University of Phoenix get most of their revenue from federal student aid. They also face accusations of building enrollments through high-pressure tactics that leave students in deep debt. Amy Scott reports.
A University of Phoenix sign. (ProAdSigns.com)
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Katherine Clark with her boyfriend Daniel Ray and their dog Cadence.
Michele Rambo, 23, of Grand Prairie, Texas.
TEXT OF STORY
Kai Ryssdal: While most businesses are still trying to find their way out of the recession, for-profit higher education is doing quite fine, thanks very much. Enrollments are up 20 percent, profits are up as well. But that doesn't mean there aren't any problems.
The biggest for-profit schools get most of their revenue from federal student loans. The billions of dollars their customers borrow to pay tuition. The University of Phoenix is the biggest for-profit school out there, probably the best known as well.
A few years ago, it paid the government $10 million over accusations about its high-pressure recruiting tactics. Now it's put aside another $80 million to settle a lawsuit about the same thing.
And a joint Marketplace ProPublica investigation shows some for-profit schools are still abusing the system. Sharona Coutts and Amy Scott reported our two-part series. Here's Amy:
AMY SCOTT: You've seen the ads on mass transit, Facebook and TV, promising job retraining, online classes, flexible schedules.
UNIVERSITY OF PHOENIX AD: I was the first in my family to graduate from college. But I won't be the last.
Hundreds of thousands of Americans have been drawn to for-profit colleges like the University of Phoenix.
UNIVERSITY OF PHOENIX AD: And I am a Phoenix.
Phoenix isn't the only school that profits from the stream of federal student aid. But it's the single biggest recipient. Last fiscal year, 86 percent of its revenue came from the federal government. That's more than $3 billion. But who's benefiting from all that money?
MICHELE RAMBO: My name is Michele Rambo, and I live in Grand Prairie, Texas.
Rambo signed up at the University of Phoenix in Dallas a few years ago.
RAMBO: I did tell them that I was pregnant and they were like, oh, well that just solves everything, you know, you qualify for a grant, you're covered. And I'm like, so I don't have to pay anything? And they told me no.
Classes went well. She got good grades. She was almost finished with her associate degree when a school counselor called about moving her on to a bachelor's program.
RAMBO: And one of the questions that she asked me completely stopped the whole conversation. She had asked me, so what kind of loan do you have?
Rambo thought she didn't have a loan. But when she enrolled, she signed what she thought was a form inquiring about federal aid.
Turns out it was an application for loans that'll cost her $18,000 when she graduates.
RAMBO: It was scary. It still is scary. I'm still scared. I still don't even know what I'm going to do yet.
So how could this happen?
It turns out the enrollment counselors at the University of Phoenix get paid in part based on how many students they recruit. The university's negotiating the settlement of a lawsuit that claims employees were pressured to sign people up.
Bill Pepicello is president of the University of Phoenix. He says his school goes out of its way to ensure counselors don't mislead students.
BILL PEPICELLO: We train our financial counselors very carefully to provide an array of options for students, and to try to be as specific as they can as to what the implications of each of those are.
One financial aid expert told us it's not uncommon for students to sign a bunch of paperwork without really understanding the terms of their loans.
Sound familiar?
At a recent hearing, Congressman George Miller of California likened problems in student lending to another recent crisis.
GEORGE MILLER: I'm a little worried that we're developing a process here that looks a lot like sort of subprime student loans. And knowing that these people don't have the capacity to pay it back, knowing that they may not have the ability to benefit from this education, we go ahead and extend them the credit...
What he means by not benefiting, is that many students saddled with debt don't finish their degrees. The for-profit industry says about 60 percent of its students graduate from two-year programs. The University of Phoenix says its rate is less than half that. But whether students drop out or graduate, they still leave school burdened with debt. And it's debt they can't escape.
BARMAK NASSIRIAN: It is very important to understand, student loans are the most collectible obligation in the United States.
Barmak Nassirian is with the American Association of Collegiate Registrars and Admissions Officers.
NASSIRIAN: Students who default on their student loans have their Social Security benefits intercepted, have their tax returns intercepted, have their wages garnished. They are ruined for life.
The Department of Education says more and more students are falling behind on their loans. For-profit schools have a higher default rate than the average.
Harris Miller represents many for-profit schools as CEO of the Career College Association, a lobby group in Washington, D.C. He says defaults are higher at his schools not because they're for-profit, but because they sign up poor people. People who might not otherwise have a shot at college.
HARRIS MILLER: The simple fact is if your institution is willing to accept lower income students, which our institutions are, which community colleges are, which minority serving institutions are, they have higher default rates.
The taxpayer actually makes money from the interest on these loans. But critics of the system say students often lose out. Not only are they deep in debt, they don't always have much to show for it.
I went to see Katherine Clark at her home in Seal Beach, Calif. She signed up for a business management degree at the University of Phoenix. She says the program included courses like "Skills for Lifelong Learning."
KATHERINE CLARK: Like they had worksheets where it was like if you're deserted on an island, and you have a list of things, put them in order of how they would be important to you. And I'm just like are you kidding? What am I ever going to use this for?
Clark didn't qualify for federal student aid. So she paid some of the bill with credit cards. The rest she owes to a private lender, Sallie Mae.
CLARK: In total, I've paid out of my pocket, $3521. And I still owe $600.
Scott: And what did you get in return?
Clark: Absolutely nothing.
The Apollo Group, which owns the University of Phoenix, made just shy of half-a-billion dollars in profit last year. But Barmak Nassirian says no one's keeping a close eye on the quality of the education for-profit schools like Phoenix provide.
NASSIRIAN: In too many instances we see keyboarding skills transcribed as Computer Science 101, we have seen working with Microsoft Windows transcribed as a Theoretical Course in Operating Systems, and the like.
Clark was so disappointed she dropped out after a course and a half. University of Phoenix officials say out of more than 420,000 current students, a few anecdotes don't tell the whole story.
But Marketplace and ProPublica have heard other troubling accounts. Tomorrow you'll hear allegations of some abusive tactics for signing students up.
With Sharona Coutts of ProPublica, I'm Amy Scott for Marketplace.
Comments
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From GA, 11/20/2009
When I say nepotism is fierce, this usually wins out. There are many who are in leading position and do not have advanced degrees. They were merely given a chance by someone they know and were mentored and supported. You don't need a degree for that.
From GA, 11/20/2009
"Each student has to make the decision if they really want to be competitive in today's market. With a Master's, I will be able to apply and compete for opportunities that non-degree individuals will not."
This is one of the most told lies that keeps universites open. Knowing someone is far more powerful than getting a degree. Nepotism is a fearce competitor to those who are learned and the learned usually lose in most cases. Having any degree guarantees one thing and one thing only. If you don't get a full scholarship or grants you will have debt to pay and getting a degree will not gurantee that you will be able to pay back this debt. America or Americans do not seem to care about scholarship by rewarding those who are scholarly.
From Los Angeles, CA, 11/19/2009
I received my Bachelors and will receive my Masters from the University of Phoenix. I tried the traditional methods, but the work environment was too stressful and then driving to school and fighting to get a parking place became too much. The added cost of working from home was worth the investment. The truth is that a degree opens doors that individuals without a degree will not be able to enter. My current position required a BS degree. I took a test and scored in the top three percentile, which is required to get hired. The degree opened in the door; my experience and knowledge helped me to obtain a place for the position. In my opinion, you get out of an education as much effort as you expend.
When I was interested in starting with University of Phoenix, I called and asked for information to review. I received information about fees, financing, and course objectives. I read all the material and made the decision that I would be better off with a degree than without in the changing work environment. The financing section was informative and I asked a lot of questions about student loans. I believe that if one can read it is difficult to be tricked into anything. Currently, I owe $40,000 in student loans for the University of Phoenix and I have many friends that graduated from Stanford University, USC, and other that owe in excess of $75,000 to $200,000 in loans.
Each student has to make the decision if they really want to be competitive in today's market. With a Master's, I will be able to apply and compete for opportunities that non-degree individuals will not.
I am glad the opportunity was there for me to achieve my personal and professional goals.
From GA, 11/15/2009
"Let's ask, is the quality of education from Phoenix any better or worse than from the so called better colleges and universities such as (Yale, Harvard, Uof M, etc...) which our executives from the banking community, or maybe the auto industry are from? Wow, Phoenix looks like a bargain from this prospective."
Then we need to ask if Harvard, Yale and the like teaching business ethics. These same exectutives have engaged in unethical, illigal, and downright nasty business practices. Is this what they teach at Harvard, Yale, and the like?
From GA, 11/15/2009
It saddens me that there are individuals who will support amoral behavior by these corporate executives. Education is the true victim. It is being violated by antisocial corporate henchmen who are making their dreams of domination come true at the expense of others. Stop defending them or maybe those in defense of this corporation are benefiting form it. No it is not a for-profit issue only. Higher education institutions across the board are pimping those who seek higher education. Retention, retention, retention is the name of the game in order to what...keep money flowing. Individuals will do whatever it takes in order to keep bodies matriculating.
From Jacksonville, FL, 11/15/2009
When you take out a Stafford Loan (more commonly referred to as a student loan) at any school you have to sign a MPN (master promissory note) with a lender of your choice. The MPN is a contractual agreement between the student and lender that speaks to the repayment of funds to the lender. You are contacted by the lender, usually by mail, and given a copy of your loan documents. All of these students that claim they did not know that a Stafford Loan had to be paid back are stupid or liars. Take your pick! Wise up and finish your education. YOU NEED IT!
From Appleton, WI, 11/12/2009
I was saddened to hear the biased broadcast against University of Phoenix. I have been affiliated with UOPX for many years and have observed outstanding enrollment, academic, and finance counselors, in addition to academic affairs staff and faculty, try their best to assist people earn an education. Not everyone has the opportunity to attend a university in a traditional way. Traditional universities often require full time status and can be unforgiving to busy schedules, the need to work, childcare needs, or long distance commutes to campus. UOPX has provided another option to assist those who have non-traditional needs.
Unfortunately, even with increased options for education, some people may not have the motivation, attitude, or ability to complete a degree in whatever university they choose. People who are not motivated may give up. People who have a poor attitude may blame the university for their financial problems, for failing courses, for not being in class the required amount of time, and for blaming faculty who give them the grade they earn. UOPX campuses in Milwaukee/Fox Valley offer free (yes, free) tutoring and lab services during the week. Many students who are motivated and value their learning attend these sessions regularly when needed (or call in if they live away from campus).
Personally, I have worked in education for over 30 years. I have a traditional Bachelor’s and Master’s degree from a Wisconsin state school. I had little or no assistance with scheduling courses from that institution, and the finance department personnel were not always personable, even though my payments were always timely. However, my education at that institution was solid because I worked hard to achieve well and took responsibility for my commitments. My doctoral degree is from UOPX. It was a rigorous program, and I wanted it to be rigorous. I found the education from UOPX to be equal to the quality of my previous degrees, and in some cases the quality was greater. My UOPX academic counselor was considerably helpful and encouraging, my finance counselor sent reminder notes regularly for payment as I had requested, and my instructors were organized and knowledgeable. The overall communication from the UOPX SAS program was superb, especially during the dissertation process. I always felt the support was there if I needed it.
I am a Phoenix. I was a Phoenix over 10 years ago when I saw a wonderful online option of education become available for those who could not attend a traditional school. I was a Phoenix when I joyously accepted a position as a faculty member. I was a Phoenix when I was hired as an Academic Affairs leader with UOPX. I was a Phoenix as I crossed the stage to receive my degree as a Doctor of Educational Leadership. And I am a Phoenix still because I believe that UOPX's educational philosophy is dedicated to assisting all people who want a degree and are willing to put through the effort to get that degree, no matter their economic or cultural situation.
I have been a loyal listener to NPR and WPR for many years. The programming is normally very enriching with excellent research. I encourage NPR to revisit the lack of professional reporting regarding UOPX and provide a program that highlights the truth about online, for-profit education (UOPX) as a serious analysis, synthesis, and evaluation of pros and cons.
From New Bruanfels, TX, 11/11/2009
I read this with interest-I am a 47yr old woman, with 3 grown kids - one at Berkley, getting a law degree, one finishing up at Wayland Baptist Univ (both at school and ONLINE classes) and one just starting her college career...My interest in this article stems from the fact that I am considering going back to school myself, after a many-year hiatus for motherhood/working full time reasons. Not only is Univ of Phoenix out there peddling their wares, but just watch daytime tv and notice all the ads for college out there---there are many, many, many schools that peddle their academics in a variety of job skills, and they all offer financial aid options. Yes this article targets Univ of Phoenix; but, the MAIN intent of this article is to caution everyone out there who is considering an online education to READ THE FINE PRINT! Nothing in this country is Free --- and anyone who thinks any kind of higher education doesn't come with a price better wise up fast and realize that if they do go onto to obtain a higher education, they have to PAY in CASH for it, eventually....just like everything else in this world requires money.
From Atlanta, GA, 11/11/2009
Listen, if UoP has predatory student loan practices, then nail them for it! I have absolutely NO problem with correcting a flawed or immoral practice in any organization. My problem is with the allegations that a UoP education is worthless, which is what many have claimed. It's wrong. I know, I graduated there. I'm NOT worthless. Is it really logical to take the word of someone who gets mad about the money they spent and then turns around and makes claims about the quality of the education? What does that say about them? They CHOSE to enroll. Nobody twisted their arm. If it was so pitiful, then why not drop out immediately? I went to a state university and saw exactly the same losers there. I was in a biology class and 3 black chicks stormed the professor and said the class was impossibly hard. He changed the entire rest of the semester to be OPEN BOOK...including the tests and homework. That same university has one of the top rated business schools in the nation. Another lady brought her little kid to class with her every night. He sat in the floor next to her desk and distracted everyone. Nobody ever said sh*t to her about it. How's that for quality education? So quit throwing stones at Uop just because you are in debt with student loans. There's a lot of innocent students out here that you are hurting. If you want to complain about the people doing the enrollment, then do that. I don't give a crap about that.
From Houston, TX, 11/10/2009
I have taught online for the University of Phoenix for a year now. What troubles me about this story is the innuendo. There is a quotation from Nassirian at the very end of the story. It is prefaced by the phrase "for profit schools like Phoenix." The University of Phoenix is the only named institution, yet Nassirian's accusation that keyboarding is being called Computer Science is never proven to be a practice in which the University of Phoenix is engaging. If this story were reporting in a more responsible manner, it would not link the University of Phoenix's name with such practices unless they were proven to have taken place with specific information. Which for profit institution is offering keyboarding and calling it Computer Science? I certainly can't tell by listening to this report.
From Jacksonville, FL, 11/10/2009
The University of Phoenix offers extraordinary resources to its online students, including writing labs, an extensive library, tutorials, electronic essay reviews, librarian assistance, weekly feedback from instructors, active discussions with classmates, and nicely written syllabi. And that's just one portion of the program: the entry-level Communications classes. Students and instructors work hard.
From Houston, TX, 11/10/2009
Debby Yee, you wouldn't happen to be a lobbyist for University of Phoenix? I noticed that you are conspicuously based in Arizona.
Giving a class in basic Windows and calling it "Computer Science" is criminal. There is a real dilemma in this country regarding those things that make society better: education and healthcare. We are the only industrialized nation that allows its citizens to go into extreme debt, and eventually bankruptcy, from both. Of course, unfortunately, the student loans that U of P allows its hapless student body to incur cannot be discharged in bankruptcy, so those "poor minorities" will be entangled in that cord for the rest of their lives. Isn't capitalism great?
From CT, 11/10/2009
As of yesterday I have graduated from University of Phoenix. I had a few issues with the cost of eductional items; for example, a required text for my last class was just an earlier edition of a text i had purchased for a previous class. When i contacted my financial advisor to ask her to refund my money for the text (to the government, actually, who holds most of my student loans), she told me there was nothing she could do about it, and that she had encountered the same thing. I tried to push the conversation further, but i was met with a brick wall.
I was also required to take a "Skills for Professional Development" - me, a 27 year old student with nearly 10 years of management experience - which turned out to be a "warm-up" class for those who may have not been to school in some time.
Many of the complaints i have about UoP could be applied to all schools - cost of text, justification for expenses, trouble transferring credits.
From GA, 11/10/2009
"Why don’t we ever hear about average people and their issues why is it we only stand up and take notice when the story centers on a “poor minority”? "
I'm not sure how long have been living or what planet you live on, but this "poor minority" is what drives the civilization that you lovingly take part in. It's this poor minority that provides the foundation for our society. So I see that you have no problem spitting on those in which you perceive to be less than you.
From GA, 11/10/2009
Capitalism. Free markets. Free reign. This just opens the door for deceit and history has proved it. I find that many people think that because a company found a loophole in the law that allows them to gain more by legally screwing people over is justifiable. Just because you can do something does not mean that you should. Antisocial people don't think this way. These antisocial corporate criminals are respected for this behavior.
From GA, 11/10/2009
"Did you know the current administration is trying to eliminate the FFELP student loan program?"
Did you know that the corporations that you are defending and protecting are lobbying to shut down the Consumer Financial Protection Agency. Well, I guess you think that every single corporate executive is fair and honest and should not have to abide by any rules. This is not to say that all consumers are fair and honest. This is why there needs to be regulation in order to maintain balance. Consumers are not apart of the process that producs these ambiguous, convoluted, and deceptive financial instruments geared towards what...making money off of people.
From GA, 11/10/2009
Debby Yee, I will do my best to be civil.
You were very long winded in your comment and can be summed up this way. You defend and/or either totally represent the thieves and the crooks who misuse the system we have in place. Capitalism has its place and can be beneficial. You or anyone else can never justify taking advantage of and stealing from people just because you have spent countless hours figuring out how to bypass channels in order to do so. There has to be checks and balances in order to have some semblance of fair play. What is fair is not always equal. I understand that, which is why there has to be regulation that will allow for recourse when unjust practices have taken place. Money is not the demon. Antisocial $53k per hour babies who run these corporations are the demons. They cry and scream about regulation because it does not prevent, but hinders their urge to screw people over and exercise their warrior attitudes. Get a clue and have respect for humanity.
From Honolulu, HI, 11/09/2009
You might be interested in checking out the video I just posted to YouTube that documents all the web stories like this one; Search Words: University of Phoenix : Higher Education or Higher Profits?
Thanks, Robert
From Gilbert, AZ, 11/09/2009
Journalism is dead in this country, it really is! Negative press sells advertising. Follow the money my friends….ask yourself why does this article want me to hate UoP? Why do they want me to feel bad for people who signed their names to countless documents but refuse to take responsibility? Why is making a profit a bad thing in this country? This country was founded on capitalism, right? Why do journalists want to demonize money? This article for all it’s supposed “investigation” is slanted to the left, the far left. Where is the balance? Where are the interviews from hundreds of thousands of students that have graduated from the University of Phoenix? Why don’t we ever hear about average people and their issues why is it we only stand up and take notice when the story centers on a “poor minority”? As though everyone else has to own up to their responsibility but if you are a poor minority you don’t. Am I to believe there is a “Financial Aid fairy” that comes to the minorities and the poor and pays for all their education? Why don’t we as a collective group realize and agree that bad people exist but they come in all shapes, colors & social economic backgrounds and you don’t necessarily to be educated. Let’s teach our children, “trust but verify” or “show me”. If we as a collective group just decided to follow the money and ask a couple of questions like what is the agenda of this writer? Why does this reporter want me to believe in him? Who is this group and what makes them the authority on this subject?
What is NPR’s agenda? Do you know NPR main funding is from the federal government? Do you know President Obama and his administration hates private anything, especially if it makes money? Did you know the current administration is trying to eliminate the FFELP student loan program? The FFELP program gives the student a choice in what lender they want to have service their student loan based on their comfort zone. What will happen to the employees that currently work in the private banks, will their jobs be eliminated? If the government gets their way they are going to convert all the FFELP student loans to Direct Loan; no more choice and higher interest rates.
Bottom line, NPR stands for the National Public Radio, partners with PBS, Public Broadcasting Service, i.e. the government, follow the money. Who stands to profit if for “profit schools” get bad press? Did you know that the generous billionaires Herb & Marion Sandler are the funders of ProPublica publications? Did you know Herb and Marion sold their World Savings for $4 million in 1963 and building it into mighty Golden West Financial Corp., one of the largest home mortgage lenders in the country? In 2006, they lost Golden West, which had over $125 billion in assets, to Wachovia for $24 billion. Wachovia, which made the terrible decision to purchase the company’s portfolio of subprime loans, teetered on the edge of bankruptcy when the housing market collapsed. It reported losing $24 billion in the third quarter of 2008 and was ubsequently acquired by Wells Fargo at the end of 2008 for a paltry $12.7 billion. Makes ya go HMmmmmmmm. Did you know early this year, the couple found their way onto Time magazine’s list of 25 People to Blame for the Financial Crisis.” Golden West had been a pioneer in the creation of exotic mortgage products such as the option adjustable-rate mortgages, known as ARMs. (Chumley 2009) Personally, before NPR or ProPublica throws mud I think they better clean up their own house.
From MI, 11/09/2009
Let's ask, is the quality of education from Phoenix any better or worse than from the so called better colleges and universities such as (Yale, Harvard, Uof M, etc...) which our executives from the banking community, or maybe the auto industry are from? Wow, Phoenix looks like a bargain from this prospective.
From Honolulu, HI, 11/09/2009
For all of those out there like my self that have become victims of U of P's predatory enrollment and financial aid practices; You might be interested in checking out the video I just posted to YouTube that documents all the web stories like this one, that reports the Allegations, The recent SEC investigation, and profiles of all current record profits, the Apollo Group,(parent company of U of P) is making in the stock market. Dedicated to all that have become victims, of this for profit school, and until recently, no one was listening.
Mahalo, Robert
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhb5as73rqc
From GA, 11/08/2009
"The student that realizes that they’ve been duped & that the education is sub-par loses; they drop their classes and then owe tons of money to the school & through loans. The student that goes through and receives their degree thinks they’ve won; they still owe tons of money and received a degree that will be valued much less than other schools. The employer that hires this student with a “degree” loses; they hire an under-educated worker…"
Unfortunately your statement is one of the major problems that perputates the false illusion about education. The reason for getting a higher education was never ever for the sole purpose of getting a job. This is suggesting that the purpose of public schools is to farm and cultivate workers. If this is the case, we are in a world of trouble. This would mean corporate entities like Apollo Group and others will be funneling funds to schools and dictating their curriculum. I hope this never becomes the case.
11/08/2009
I’ve worked at a for-profit online school that is just like UOP. The fact is, places like UOP have found a loophole in the system which allows them to ultimately profit from a lack in regulations in the field of higher learning. This is such a difficult topic to tackle, because the problem is multi-faceted. You’re dealing with not just an educational entity, but laws & regulation, private lending, and Federal lending. I’ve read some comments that say that these schools are operating within the current laws so therefore everything they‘re doing is okay. I would counter that by looking at the housing collapse. Many things that happened in the housing loan industry happened within the realm of law, but was clearly unethical. The point is this: more regulation is needed. That means, regulation of student loan practices, quality of the institution (course material, teachers, business practices, etc) and ultimately the relevance of the education that is received.
The issue is further distorted by students that are currently in class or have received a degree from these schools. The problem is similar to those that received degrees from degree mills. No student wants to be told that their education is substandard. No student wants to be told that their success was a result of the course material being watered down or made easy. The subjectivity of education in itself can make it extremely difficult to argue that the education is not up to par. What is education? What is learning? Because of this, many online schools can get away with offering courses that are sub par.
In addition, we’re told that this school may be Regionally Accredited and this other school here is Nationally Accredited, so therefore these schools are legit. But is that so? Do you know what the accreditation bodies look after? If you don’t, take a visit to each one and look at their requirements and what they look for to accredit a school. The US government does not regulate any schools. They look to these independent accrediting bodies as an indicator that these are quality schools. What happens if the quality in regulation slips?
So, why doesn’t more information about these for-profit schools become public? They must have a lot of employees that could spill the beans. Well, the answer is simple, greed & ignorance, or a combination of the two. Why didn’t someone expose what was happening on Wall Street? I’m sure some did, but the media didn’t grab hold and so traction never built up…and then everything collapsed. One person can not take on a billion dollar a year company, which is why the US government needs to. Many will disagree and say, “This is America; the land of opportunity…blah blah blah”. What needs to be realized is that there are a lot of bad people out there that are doing bad things everyday. Some of these people aren’t on the streets, they’re in business, they’ve got jobs, they’re owners or managers…whatever. They exist in private industry, and therefore there need to be regulations to prevent innocent people from being taken advantage of.
What will happen if we continue on this road? Well, for-profit’s surely win; they receive money through loans, which is guaranteed . The loan industry wins; they receive money from the student. The student that realizes that they’ve been duped & that the education is sub-par loses; they drop their classes and then owe tons of money to the school & through loans. The student that goes through and receives their degree thinks they’ve won; they still owe tons of money and received a degree that will be valued much less than other schools. The employer that hires this student with a “degree” loses; they hire an under-educated worker…if in fact they do hire that person. If they succeed in their field with these sub par degrees, then I must ask, did they really need the degree in the first place?
From Takoma Park, MD, 11/08/2009
I have a very different take on this 2-day story than most posters. My unemployed sister signed up with UOP 3 years ago and I was skeptical then, especially after seeing some of the supposedly college level work she was doing (multiplying and dividing fractions, perfect scores for writing assignments that wouldn't get a C at the state school I attended). I held my tongue because she was already enrolled before I knew about it, the rest of my family didn't want me to discourage her, and it was my understanding that it was being paid for mostly with scholarships. She's now $20-30k in debt, and that will almost double if she finishes her bachelors there. With these two stories, I have more than just my own opinion to offer, although I truly dread having this conversation with her. I encourage those of you who are currently enrolled at UOP and the like to take a hard look at the value of this education and especially the debt you're incurring to get it.
11/08/2009
I, too, found this article very slanted. It was also rehashed from very old news articles. I've read this stuff before from articles two years ago that you can find on the web! It did not give a balanced view. The person who wrote this article must not have ever taken an online course - or at least needed a ratings boost.
I received my MBA from a prestigious 'bricks and mortar' college by taking online courses! Yes - I paid just as much if not more than at the UoP. I loved it.
Many jobs today require computer savvy individuals. They need employees that are independent. Online schools fulfill these needs and do require more maturity and a more independent type thinker to be successful. I'm not sure if many younger people have those traits, yet. However, for an older person, this type of learning can be perfect for their needs. There have been studies done that online beats traditional learning - although a hybrid of the two types beats either.
As to the complaint about the cost and loans, this is nothing new. I have been reading about students from traditional colleges who are living with parents and are $100,000 in debt trying to pay off their student loans. Claiming ignorance about the cost of the loans seems to be the normal thing to do now. I will be having my daughter go to a community college before transferring to a higher priced college to complete her four-year degree. Shame on these students and parents who go to these expensive colleges that they can't afford and then ask where their bailout is! And shame on people who write articles that are this biased on what is supposed to be a prestigious news site!
From GA, 11/08/2009
"I thought the name of your program was Marketplace? In a marketplace, consumers make choices. The University of Phoenix complies with all FTC guidelines and state regulations and is audited aggressively by the Department of Education Inspector General. UOP's instructors use syllabi and employ adjunct professors that are shared by state and not-for-profit private schools -- that's why they share comparable accreditations."
Enron (Arthur Anderson agressively audited Enron too), WorldCom, Tyco, Adelphia, Phizer, Merck, Madoff, Citibank, Bear Sterns, and Bank of America etc. were all in compliance (at least we thought) made billions of dollars off of citizens. I suppose you are suggesting that compliance is synonymous to ethical behavior? Anyone who believes this, still believes that there was not a financial meltdown, forclosures and unemployment is not at an all-time high. The university may very well be accredited, but that does not mean that each program offered is.
From GA, 11/08/2009
I suppose that many individuals here think that this mulitimillion dollar corporation (Apollo Group) deserves a fair chance. Some people feel as though the corporate executives deserve a chance to display and defend their antisocial thinking and actions. I can not understand why corporate shenanigans is revered as being successful or having high moral standing.
From GA, 11/08/2009
Earning a 4.0 upon graduation does not guarantee a fulfilling career and does not pay back the loans that many of require in order to get an education. Education in this country comes at a very high price. If you are not a part of the money flow you will have to resort to attaining an education in order to make more than the pitiful minimum wage paid in this country. UOP is a part of this high price of education. It offers convenience for adults, which in turn requiring adults with families to pay a high price for this convenience. You may choose not to attend this institution, but if you have a family and need to work the alternatives are very abysmal.
From GA, 11/08/2009
Corporate slaves. It saddens me how some individuals defend their corporate masters I guess in hopes they will someday become part of the flow of money. This corporate educational instituion (UOP) is pilaging and cashing in on the hopes and dreams of students. Students do come out owing more than they could possibly pay back. Those who do pay back their loans had the means to do so in the first place or received an opportunity conducive to doing so. No one should ever think that this instution or any other like it has the best interest of the students at heart. There is a predermined end or a desired monetary outcome. Enrollment ensures this and not the opportunites that students get once they graduate.
11/08/2009
The university of phoenix's recruiter was aggressive and misleading about the cost of attendance. My wife was told one thing and once she was enrolled, the amount was significantly different. The person acted as if they were caring and sincere and called several times a week. Once my wife enrolled, all that changed. The advisor acts as if they are being bothered. They do not return calls. I see now how deeply flawed the American educational system is due in part the fact that profit and greed is a motivating factor for these types of institutions.
11/07/2009
To my great regret, I was unfortunate enough to come across this story. Considering myself an open-minded person and willing to construct an opinion based on empirical data and educated commentary; I approached this story with the full expectation of reading a well-balanced report filled with information that one could really delve into and make up their own mind. To my dismay the journalist chose to write a story that was unbearably one-sided and purposefully neglected to incorporate information that was offered to be provided by the University. Any reasonable reader can only surmise the conclusions are weak and without merit. This news story is tabloid journalism at best and lacks any journalistic integrity whatsoever.
A number of comments mentioned that employers will not accept University of Phoenix degrees and they have no value in the marketplace. Being that is such a broad statement, and that it is most probable those making that statement are not representatives of corporate America, one has to conclude those statements are based on nothing more than speculation and conjecture, and lack as much merit as the story itself. It is disturbing that some would so aimlessly criticize an institution of higher learning without having any personal experience which to base their opposition. Further, would base their comments and opinions on hearsay and questionable information. For those who may have such experiences, thank you for your opinion, but would challenge you not precipitously to conclude the institution fails to serve a valuable function within the educational system.
Whether you like it or not the University of Phoenix is an accredited institution at many levels. They hold accreditation with the Higher Learning Commission and is a member of the North Central Association. Moreover, their business programs are accredited by the Association of Collegiate Business Schools and Programs, which is notably one of two accrediting agencies recognized by Council of Higher Education Accreditation (CHEA). They hold accreditation in other disciplines, as well as, specific state licensures. The irony is that everybody who believes they lack educational quality is basically saying all of the aforementioned accrediting agencies are wrong. Interesting. And, if anyone were to notice, other “traditional” higher institutions are starting to follow the University’s education model. They are offering classes and full degrees on-line, and are starting to bring in persons who are experts in their respective fields to teach classes.
As now a former listener and reader of NPR, I hope you take the abundance of disdain comments and re-think how you present future stories. If you really want to take ownership in your obvious failure to promote an unbiased story, you would do a follow up that incorporates both sides of facts to allow for open, honest, and unbiased perspectives to be shared and thought through. Isn’t that what journalism is about – laying out all of the facts and allowing readers to formulate their own opinion, versus manipulating the truth, or for that matter, completely omitting other viable points of view?
By the way, how much is NPR making with online add revenue from this story?
From Atlanta, GA, 11/07/2009
Oh, one more thing NPR. Since I won't be listening to you any longer, you can forget about me donating to your LISTENER SUPPORTED funding campaigns. I would encourage all UoP students, faculty and family members to do the same. Maybe then they will consider the harm that their wreckless exposes can cause to innocent people.
From Atlanta, GA, 11/07/2009
I finally got around to responding to that ridiculous "expose" I heard on NPR. I have been an avid listener of 90.1 here in Atlanta for years. No more. That was a terribly offensive segment that failed to consider the many students and instructors of UoP who will be harmed by an attack on the alleged enrollment processes. I would expect that kind of mean-spirited bias at Fox News, but I thought NPR had more class. I have no problem with them making an honest attempt at rectifying a shady process if it's true, but they also slid in people who made a UoP education sound worthless. I got my degree from UoP and it helped me land a job and that job feeds my family. How will this reporter feel when someone out here can't get a job because they heard this story on NPR and discount the educational value of a UoP degree? I hope NPR has a conscience. Knowing that they could be impacting innocent students across the country just trying to make a living would keep me up at night. Let me tell you something. I was the first person in my family to earn a degree. I got my AS degree at a state university and because my son is severely autistic I was not able to continue working and going to night school. UoP allowed me the flexibility to finish my undergraduate, and to get a job where I can afford the special care my son needs. My entire family was at my graduation. Several of those family members heard the NPR story. Thanks for humiliating me. I hope it was worth it. Do you believe in KARMA? Maybe you should.
From Honolulu, HI, 11/07/2009
You know I started thinking about how mad University of Phoenix made me when they refused to take my phone calls after they pre-charged my employer for classes I did'nt take and put me in collections status, that I did a little research. I found an attorney in Northern California that is filing a class action lawsuit against the school. Her name is Nancy G. Krop and her website link is: http://www.kroplaw.com/uop/index.html
There are many court documents and Main stream News organization article and report links to address the U of P.
These reports are from many respected and are not "left wing" as many of the employees and supports of U of P say in their posts. The Los Angeles Times, The New York Times, CBS News 60 Mins.,and University of Phoenix's own home town newspaper, The Arizona Republic......
11/06/2009
I grew up in East Palo Alto, a town that is only 2 square miles, and in the early 90’s East Palo Alto was declared murder capitol of the world for 3 years straight. I watched people get stabbed and grew up listening to gun shots and attending funerals. People in my neighborhood were not given a chance at the American dream. Instead we were told by the media, some teachers and negative influences that we would end up dead, in jail, selling drugs or a victim to gang violence.
The truth of the matter is 2 years ago I was unemployed looking at jobs online and I became very discouraged. My reason for being discouraged was due to the fact that all of the jobs I wanted to apply for required one thing, a Bachelors degree. While continuing my search on yahoo jobs I was exposed to a link to click on and request information from colleges about earning my degree. I received a call back from the University of Phoenix in less than 5 minutes and set an appointment to meet with my enrollment advisor the very next day.
When I met with her she was very professional and all she wanted to do was talk about my life, my goals, my dreams and my family. The thing that stood out the most was how well she listened to what I had to say and provided direction according to my needs. I simply shared with her that I have a wife and a daughter at home who is relying on me to make something positive happen for our family. I told her if she could show me how I could earn my degree and work full time that not only would my wife be on board but I would be on board as well.
A long story short I started class a month later because I chose to. I decided that now was the time for me to make a positive change in my life. I decided that I was tired of struggling and wondering how my future was going to turn out. I decided to stop blaming others for my current position and become proactive about my future.
I was able to escape that fait and find myself starting a new chapter in my life by finishing my degree at the University of Phoenix. Little did I know that listening to counselors introduce themselves and share their stories of success of how they overcame the odds and earned their degree would change my life forever. I walked up to the enrollment manager and shared that I really enjoyed her staff’s stories. She invited me in to a group interview and a couple months later I became a University of Phoenix employee. If I had not made a choice to get up and do something with my life and finish my degree I would have never had the opportunity to become an employee as well. My family and I are able to eat dinner, pay our bills and live because God used a company like university of Phoenix to give a guy like me a chance at a better life.
This is the story NPR failed to air. There are thousands of stories of people like me who would never be able to step foot on a "prestigious" college campus. University of Phoenix day in and day out for 30 years continue to take a risk and provide education for the underserved and unappreciated population.
Sure there have probably been counselors who have misrepresented University of Phoenix when guiding students. Those counselors are no longer here and if they are I can assure you that their time with this company is and will be short lived. Instead of focusing on a few negative testimonies why not interview some of the hundreds of people who have earned their degree instead of choosing to become drug dealers. Why not interview high school drop outs, who earned their GED, were rejected by some state and other private institutions but now they own their own business because University of Phoenix gave them a chance at higher learning.
I am hurt and offended not only based on the fact that I myself am a University of Phoenix student and employee but I am an advent listener of NPR in the Sacramento, California region. I love to listen to talk of the nation, market place, fresh air and especially jazz after 7:00 p.m. (at least 3 nights per week). I have always encouraged friends and family to tune into NPR because NPR consistently provides an "unbiased", fresh approach to news from around the world. Boy was I wrong. The funny thing is I was really considering that night when the 1st segment of this ruthless attack against us aired to become a member who supports NPR rather than just a listener. I’m not to sure if I will support NPR now. It is not deceptive or aggressive sales tactics that make the University of Phoenix great. It is the people who genuinely care about changing lives and watching lives and families transformed. Are you really doing the same?
11/06/2009
For a response to the University of Phoenix’s criticism of this reporting project, click on the link to Propublica in the “Links” box above.
From Walnut Creek, CA, 11/06/2009
Very interesting. I searched for and read ProPublica's article and it is very biased against UOP. It does mention that other schools have other problems and does not name any of the other schools. It is a hit piece on UOP.
I was recruited at a job fair in Concord for the MBA program. They were looking for teachers, but encouraged me to enroll. Unlike the article, I was not rushed into anything and I was told new classes start every week. Unlike the students mentioned in the article, I read everything I signed and was certainly aware of the risks I was taking in applying for student loans. Read before you sign. It is my responsibility to read, not the University's.
The article seemed to imply that UOP has a responsibility to graduate its students once they take loans. Not so. The loan is how you pay for the services UOP provides. It is the student's responsibility to do the reading, resolve problems with teachers and groups and get things done on time. Class is open 24 hours each day. Post something to the discussion board whether you read the material or not.
Dropout rates are always high at every school. I attended DeVry for my Bachelor's in Accounting. In March, 1992, I started in a class of 120 students my freshman year. About 60 of those were Accounting students. The rest were BSOPs majors. Three years later (we went to school all year), I was one of four who jumped up on that stage and got my diploma. Eight people were added to our number and these eight were student who fell back or did the night school part-time.
At UOP, 11 people attended my first class. About 21 months later, I was one of two people to graduate. The two of us merged with other classes who took some weeks off for us to catch up with them, but we made it. Only determined, self-motivated students will graduate. I took three years for my Bachelor's. DeVry had a tough accounting program. But I succeeded because one night I took the initiative and started the Principles I course from Chapter 1 one night when my grades looked about mid-trimester like I may not pass this course. That one night, reading from Chapter 1 and drawing a map, pulled my grade from a low D to an A- (90.05) by the end of the course. After that night, Accounting made perfect sense and I knew I picked the right major. The 14 accounting courses after that were easy.
My sister, on the other hand, aced her SATs and was high school salutatorian, but took five years to graduate through three colleges. She could not pick a major she liked and finally made her own degree, a hybrid of Communications based on the classes she had taken so far.
Dropout rates are high at every school. I am certain Stanford and Harvard do not graduate most of the students who enroll there either. Studying requires commitment, even if you are only taking one class at a time for six weeks! The dropout problem is universal.
Any large organization will have bad apples. UOP should use the opportunity to tighten its recruiting policies and police its recruiters regularly. But the problems mentioned in the article do not match the university I attended. I was not recruited anyway. ProPublica clearly has a grudge against the University of Phoenix. Perhaps a disgruntled dropout wrote the article who did not bother to read his student loan agreements before signing them.
As for accreditation issues, let me say that the California Board of Accountancy did accept both DeVry and University of Phoenix as fully accredited schools when I applied for licensure and the AICPA recognizes both schools to when applying to take the CPA exam.
From Atlanta, GA, 11/06/2009
To the gentleman who taught at UOP and would not hire someone from there, I think you are quite wrong sir. I personally learned a whole lot from UOP and isn't that what it's all about...learning? In all honesty, the truth will come out if the student did not apply themselves even if everyone was given an automatic "A" because in the end, when it comes time to apply for a job, those people who didn't apply themselves will NOT be able to do the job! I went to school to learn, not to see how high of a GPA I could get. I work for a large corporation who respects me and my work and I also have my business that I'm starting up with several clients. It's about learning. I could not attend a college because the closest college to me was 2 hours away one-way, so am I suppose to not pursue my dreams? I have to also say that some of my instructors at UOP were excellent and some were not. It is up to the instructor to give the proper grades and if an instructor gives the B or C, then it is the instructor's fault, not the person who told them to do it.
11/06/2009
I work at a college that is associated with the Apollo Group and I must say, I do not like it at all (being associated with them, that is).
This was a great article and truly gives some insight on the world of Financial Aid, UOP, the Apollo Group, and Non-term schools (which is what the adult program at UOP is).
I have had to talk to irate student after student who talked to these recruiters that are paid by the Apollo Group. They tell them things such as they will get full PELL, and because they have children they will receive Lottery Grants, and other such mess, and that they will not need a loan. Its Bull. Most all students at private higher cost colleges will have to take out loans.
I feel as if future students are mislead and I do believe that students do not realize they are taking out loans. They are told to just do a bunch of paperwork, mostly on line.
It is unfortunate that most do not read what they are filling out. And that is the case with most things - people don't take the time to find out the details.
Apollo Groups is in contract through their "branches" with colleges all over the U.S. Their main targets are working adults, which is great, because this is a group who is interested in going back to college but is unsure how they can while working, raising a family, etc.
Apollo Group receives money from the colleges they work with as a yearly amount of the contract. They then receive a percentage of all funds that come into the college for the student (A portion of their loan, grants, etc). We had a student who was pregnant with twins, due in a month, who was told it was ok to start and she would be fine - high pressure sales. The student did not do well and had to leave the program, as we expected she would. Instead of saying, wait a few months, when your ready, and you will be able to start, the Apollo Group employees pressured her into starting. From our perspective, they only care about the amount of students that start the program, and not the retention rate.
If the percentage from the article is true, less than 30%, I believe it, and see first hand why.
I have nothing against for profit, but I have a problem with having "for profit" over "for student".
From knoxville, TN, 11/05/2009
I'v seen a few comments about University of Phoenix being a diploma mill. Let's explore what a diploma mill is: What is a diploma mill?
Diploma mill: An institution of higher education operating without supervision of a state or professional agency and granting diplomas which are either fraudulent or because of the lack of proper standards worthless. —Webster’s Third New International Dictionary
Diploma mills (or degree mills) are substandard or fraudulent “colleges” that offer potential students degrees with little or no serious work. Some are simple frauds: a mailbox to which people send money in exchange for paper that purports to be a college degree. Others require some nominal work from the student but do not require college-level course work that is normally required for a degree.
There has been a substantial amount of media coverage about the problem of Diploma mills in recent months. Diploma mills (or degree mills) are substandard or fraudulent “colleges” that offer potential students degrees with little or no serious work. Among other activities, the Office of Degree Authorization is responsible for terminating substandard or fraudulent degree activities.
The United States Senate conducted hearings on the diploma mill problem in May, 2004 and in September, 2004. See the Senate web site for details
The Chronicle of Higher Education published several well-researched articles about diploma mills in its June 25, 2004 edition. Online access to the Chronicle is available only to members, but a single copy of that issue may be available for purchase for $8.00 US. Contact the Circulation Department.
The Chronicle of Higher Education
Circulation Department
1255 - 23rd Street, NW
Washington, DC 20037-1190
Visa, MasterCard and American Express accepted.
Phone 202-466-1032
Fax 202-223-6292
How do diploma mills operate?
An extensive description of how certain well-known diploma mills work through the Internet and the Web while obscuring their owners' true identities. Based on research for ODA by Dr. George Gollin." See outline for details.
Why are degree mills a problem?
“Mail drop” degree mills are simply fraud, a way for unscrupulous hucksters to make money while providing no service. More substantive degree mills devalue college degrees by making them available without college-level work. This makes all degrees suspect and confuses employers and professional licensing boards that need to know whether a person has an appropriate educational background.
How can I tell whether an institution is a degree mill?
Most degree mills have certain characteristics. A good overview of these is available from University of Illinois at: http://www.hep.uiuc.edu/home/g-gollin/pigeons/. The Council on Higher Education Accreditation at has an excellent overview of the issue at www.chea.org.
Are non-degree or non-credit classes regulated by ODA?
Some institutions offer classes in Oregon that may carry college credit but which are not intended to lead to a degree. Such offerings are not reviewed in detail but ODA does maintain a list of such authorized institutions. Non-credit training does not require ODA approval (except in some circumstances when offered by an Oregon-based public institution). In general, ODA does not investigate or regulate non-credit offerings. Contact the Career Schools office of the Oregon Department of Education regarding non-credit schools.
Are degree mills legal in Oregon?
No. Some states have lax standards that allow almost anyone to operate a “college,” but Oregon has strong state laws that provide penalties for people operating degree mills. Nevertheless, some people try to start degree mills in Oregon. The Oregon Office of Degree Authorization, a unit of the Oregon Student Assistance Commission, exists in part to find and stop such activities.
If I receive or notice a solicitation from a college in Oregon that might be a degree mill, what should I do?
Contact the Oregon Office of Degree Authorization, which will investigate the situation and either stop the degree mill from operating or, if the institution is legitimate and has, through an oversight, not gone through the state approval process, assist the institution to comply with Oregon law.
Are all unaccredited colleges degree mills?
Not all unaccredited colleges are necessarily degree mills in the traditional sense of the term. Some unaccredited colleges provide legitimate academic work. However, unless these colleges are approved by ODA, degrees from them cannot be used for public or licensed employment in Oregon. The reason is that state laws under which such institutions are approved vary markedly from state to state. Some states have high standards, some states have lax standards or no enforcement capability. Degrees from non-public institutions located in the latter states should be viewed with great caution unless the institution is accredited by a federally recognized accrediting entity.
Does an ".edu" address mean that a school is legitimate?
No. Some diploma mills and unaccredited schools have been able to obtain ".edu" extensions and there is currently no action underway to make them cease using such extensions. An ".edu" extension means nothing regarding a school's quality or legitimacy.
Which States are considered to have low or doubtful standards?
Idaho, Hawaii, Montana, Alabama, Wyoming, Mississippi and California have either no meaningful standards, excessive loopholes or poor enforcement owing to local policy or insufficient staff. Degrees issued by unaccredited private colleges in Alabama, Idaho, Mississippi or Wyoming should be evaluated with great caution. In particular, Mississippi has no oversight standards.
According to this description most of the for profit colleges attacked by this article are not diploma mills but legitimate institutions that fulfill a public need. If their academic standards were so low how could they retain accreditation from the same governing bodies that retain the right to deny accreditation to any institution that they wish without repercussions. This sounds like frivolous journalism to me.
From Chicago, IL, 11/05/2009
As a current student at UoP working on my Master's degree, I can agree with people on both sides of this argument. As for those that say the students at UoP are "bottom of the barrel," some are. I have had classes with some of them. It boggles my mind reading some of their work. But this is going to happen at ANY university that does not have an extensive application process. That being said, there are many students that I have encountered that are very in touch with being in a graduate program and putting forth an effort worth a graduate degree.
For those that simply say that they would not hire a UoP student solely based on the means by which they earned a degree, ask to see their work first. If you require a sample of work, you will be able to see whether or not you want to talk to them.
For those that think an Online degree is easier than going to class, it has its pros and its cons. A pro is that I do not have to be at a certain building in a certain room for a period of time every few days. As I tell the people I work with, I am technically in class 24hrs a day. The con from this is that because I am not in a class raising my hand to participate, I must do so online. Not counting assignments, I write the equivalent of a 10 page paper every week to simply be in attendance and participate in discussion. If I had chosen to go a "traditional" route, I might have to write a 10 page paper every 4-6 weeks, if that (counting assignments).
To Michele Rambo, I am sorry that it did not work out for you. However, you probably should have had some knowledge that you were getting loans.
To Katherine Clark, doing tasks like that island thingie will like help you see what kind of thinker you are. Although it is a basic activity, the results will be relevant years later.
And finally, to Amy Scott, nice job. You got your point out and responded to by many people. Some that support you and many others that do not. In the future, see if you can get points from both sides. As for your data reporting, providing direct sources and the dates you received them will help support your points. I understand that it was a broadcast, but you could have stated where you found some of that data.
From Chicago, IL, 11/05/2009
As a current University of Phoenix student, I have some objections to this story and I find it hard to believe that a person could apply for financial aid and not be aware they've applied for a loan. I'm nearly finished with my associate's degree and just renewed my financial aid application for the third and final time to cover my last few classes. In addition to having my counselors explain the financial aid application process and the cost of tuition prior to me starting school, my FAFSA application and the school's own financial aid application required me to select a lender and to choose whether or not I wanted to apply for loans, grants, or both. I also signed a promissory note for the loan and was asked to enter in a loan amount on each occasion that I had to update my financial aid forms. Each time I've applied for financial aid, I've also received statements in the mail from FAFSA, from the lender, and from the school detailing the amounts of my loan as well as the terms. I continue to receive notifications periodically from my lender for my total loan balance and also interest statements that I use for my taxes. Not only that, but just talking to other students keeps you pretty well informed that you're borrowing money that will ultimately need to be repaid. The process was pretty much the same as when I first did the FAFSA with my son, but the difference was that I actually understood what it was I was applying for and how it worked when I did it for myself. I love NPR, but it seems like they went out of their way here to report a one-sided and questionable story. This casts a shadow over the entire organization for me.
From Gilbert, AZ, 11/05/2009
Journalism is dead in this country, it really is! Negative press sells advertising. Follow the money my friends….ask yourself why does this article want me to hate UoP? Why do they want me to feel bad for people who signed their names to countless documents but refuse to take responsibility? Why is making a profit a bad thing in this country? This country was founded on capitalism, right? Why do journalists want to demonize money? This article for all it’s supposed “investigation” is slanted to the left, the far left. Where is the balance? Where are the interviews from hundreds of thousands of students that have graduated from the University of Phoenix? Why don’t we ever hear about average people and their issues why is it we only stand up and take notice when the story centers on a “poor minority”? As though everyone else has to own up to their responsibility but if you are a poor minority you don’t. Am I to believe there is a “Financial Aid fairy” that comes to the minorities and the poor and pays for all their education? Why don’t we as a collective group realize and agree that bad people exist but they come in all shapes, colors & social economic backgrounds and you don’t necessarily to be educated. Let’s teach our children, “trust but verify” or “show me”. If we as a collective group just decided to follow the money and ask a couple of questions like what is the agenda of this writer? Why does this reporter want me to believe in him? Who is this group and what makes them the authority on this subject?
What is NPR’s agenda? Do you know NPR main funding is from the federal government? Do you know President Obama and his administration hates private anything, especially if it makes money? Did you know the current administration is trying to eliminate the FFELP student loan program? The FFELP program gives the student a choice in what lender they want to have service their student loan based on their comfort zone. What will happen to the employees that currently work in the private banks, will their jobs be eliminated? If the government gets their way they are going to convert all the FFELP student loans to Direct Loan; no more choice and higher interest rates.
Bottom line, NPR stands for the National Public Radio, partners with PBS, Public Broadcasting Service, i.e. the government, follow the money. Who stands to profit if for “profit schools” get bad press? Did you know that the generous billionaires Herb & Marion Sandler are the funders of ProPublica publications? Did you know Herb and Marion sold their World Savings for $4 million in 1963 and building it into mighty Golden West Financial Corp., one of the largest home mortgage lenders in the country? In 2006, they lost Golden West, which had over $125 billion in assets, to Wachovia for $24 billion. Wachovia, which made the terrible decision to purchase the company’s portfolio of subprime loans, teetered on the edge of bankruptcy when the housing market collapsed. It reported losing $24 billion in the third quarter of 2008 and was ubsequently acquired by Wells Fargo at the end of 2008 for a paltry $12.7 billion. Makes ya go HMmmmmmmm. Did you know early this year, the couple found their way onto Time magazine’s list of 25 People to Blame for the Financial Crisis.” Golden West had been a pioneer in the creation of exotic mortgage products such as the option adjustable-rate mortgages, known as ARMs. (Chumley 2009) Personally, before NPR or ProPublica throws mud I think they better clean up their own house.
11/05/2009
I enrolled in the UOP, the person who enrolled me called me 20 times, more than other universities for sure. However, I was happy that somebody was encouraging me to study and advance my carrier, consequently I continued, enrolled, I am learning every day more than ever, and will be soon finished.
From Tucson, AZ, 11/05/2009
This story seems extremely biased. I graduated with an MSC recently and worked extremely hard for my degree. My program is fully accredited by the council for accreditation of counseling and related educational programs (CACREP)and all classes were held on campus. In the MSC program the professors are PhD's and always have time for their students. All universities have flaws but ultimately the students must take responsibility for their learning and the teachers should have passion for their subject. My program had both.
From Honolulu, HI, 11/05/2009
"Biased and inaccurate media reporting". Is a quote from one of the University of Phoenix employees and or supporters. He's just mad that the public at large, knows the truth. I commend Marketplace for reporting the Allegations Against U of P in the first place. Maybe this will put some light on to all these subprime student loans that the school is handing out to their current students and future financial victims of the school. Purhaps the mainsteam media will investigate also. Or, Maybe these victims could pick up a video cam and air their stories on YouTube.......
From Baton Rouge, LA, LA, 11/05/2009
I am reading this article during a break in my Critical Thinking course I am teaching at UOP. I use that same desert island scenario in my course. Learned it getting my MBA at the Un. of South Carolina. It is a sound tool used to teach the benefit of team versus individual behavior. In my CT course, I try to teach my students to identify biased and inaccurate media reporting. I may use this article.
From AZ, 11/05/2009
Interesting to note that these supporters of UoP are invested in the reputation of the "diploma mill" that sold them a overpriced degree. Employers don't like to hire UoP grads, so they end up working at UoP, and that speaks volumes.
From San Francisco, CA, 11/05/2009
From UoP response: "The university is regionally accredited by the Higher Learning Commission and is a member of the North Central Association, one of six regional accrediting bodies considered to be the gold standard of accreditation."
That's where the shoddy education they provide needs to be addressed. Too bad the accrediting body isn't doing their job.
There is a place and a need for this service but the programs aren't rigorous enough and the selling practices are disgusting, institutionally approved, encouraged, and, indeed, demanded.
Say what you want, but what they do better than the traditional system is innovate, market, and sell. Everything else is mediocre at best.
From AL, 11/05/2009
Wonderful report, Market Place!
It is no secret that when education institutions become “for profit,” all the problems start. Pressuring students to get in is the common problematic practice at all “for profit” private ones.
Don’t confuse with "Non profit" private institutions,mentioned in one person's response, such as Harvard or Yale, where tuition only counts small portion of the total budget. They spend more money on students from their endowment. Unlike the “for profit” ones, such as UOP and ITT and many many others local ones, they earn money from students’ tuition and they have to do all they can to squeeze profit out of students!-it is just a hard factor! No one can deny or hide it.
From Knoxville, TN, 11/05/2009
University of Phoenix's response to article: University of Phoenix Responds to Marketplace’s “Allegations Against University of Phoenix Persist,” November 3, 2009
Marketplace yesterday aired an uncharacteristic piece of journalism for the highly regarded American Public Media – a wholly imbalanced, subjective, salacious story about University of Phoenix. This type of hit-and-run journalism ordinarily would not air on the likes of Marketplace, so why did it? In an unusual move, Marketplace outsourced its investigative reporting to ProPublica, a partisan and experimental investigative newsroom known for “muckraking tactics” and “hatchet jobs.” For more on what others are saying about ProPublica, click here and for a Capital Research Center report critical of ProPublica, click here.
Evidently in the eyes of ProPublica, University of Phoenix’s for-profit – as in free market – model negates our social agenda to increase access to higher education and is cause to categorically reject every positive piece of factual information provided by University of Phoenix. Refusing to be deterred by the facts, which are provided below, ProPublica produced – and Marketplace aired – a two-part series founded on nothing more than a series of anecdotes from five of our 17,000 employees (.03 percent of our employee population) and from 12 of our 443,000 students (.0027 percent of our student population).
We referred ProPublica to thousands of positive stories from University of Phoenix students; they were ignored. We shared the results of our most recent student satisfaction surveys, which range from the 90 to 96th percentile; they were discarded. We offered a tour of any of our enrollment facilities across the country in order to observe our enrollment counselors at work; it was snubbed. We suggested ProPublica anonymously call any of our thousands of enrollment counselors to test the enrollment-related allegations of students to be featured in their story; if calls were made, they did not support ProPublica’s story and were cast aside. University of Phoenix requested that ProPublica obtain Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act (FERPA) releases for any students to be featured in its story so that we could research and respond to specific student situations; they refused to do so, legally prohibiting us from providing our side of the story.
ProPublica has tarnished the degrees of nontraditional students served by University of Phoenix – those students who need to work full-time and/or raise a family while attending school, many of whom are minorities, first generation college students, single parents and active duty military personnel. University of Phoenix is providing options and opportunities, which otherwise would not exist for our students, and at a time when our conventional public system of higher education is proving increasingly untenable and inaccessible. Marketplace should be ashamed.
The Facts
ProPublica: Phoenix isn’t the only school that profits from the stream of federal student aid. But it’s the single biggest recipient.
Fact: Financial aid is awarded to students, not institutions, who may take their financial aid to any institution of their choosing should they be admitted. Given the size of University of Phoenix’s student population – more than 440,000 students today, dispersed across hundreds of campuses and learning centers across the country as well as online – as a group, they are the largest recipient of federal financial aid in the country. Our students are the most honest arbiters of our academic quality and they will always be the final arbiters of where they wish to spend their tuition dollars.
ProPublica: It turns out the enrollment counselors at the University of Phoenix get paid in part based on how many students they recruit.
Fact: Just as academic institutions are entitled to pay teachers based upon how well they teach, grade students based upon how well they perform, and pay executives based upon the school’s success, so too is it entirely appropriate and lawful for schools to pay recruiters in part based upon how well they perform their job – i.e., recruit students. Indeed, this is a basic premise of American industry, and was recently confirmed by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. As the Court noted, if academic institutions could not pay recruiters based upon their ability to recruit students, “you could never have any performance criteria for that particular job” and it would be the “one job where they can’t consider how well you’re doing your job.” Any other view would be antithetical to American industry.
ProPublica: The for-profit industry says about 60 percent of its students graduate from two-year programs. The University of Phoenix says its rate is less than half that.
Fact: University of Phoenix’s graduation rates are comparable to national averages: 27 percent of our students graduate at the associate degree level, which is the same as the national rate; 38 percent of our students graduate at the bachelor’s level, compared to 43 percent nationally; and 60 percent of our students graduate at the graduate level versus 61 percent nationally. But the real story that should have been told is that in a comparison of students who enter college with “risk factors” that often contribute to their dropping out, University of Phoenix’s rates of completion for a bachelor’s degree are substantially higher than for institutions overall.
ProPublica: But whether students drop out or graduate, they still leave school burdened with debt. And it’s debt they can’t escape.
Fact: Our student debt loads are within national averages compared to both public and private, non-profit four-year colleges and universities, with our students averaging between $14,200-25,221 in loans compared to the national average of $13,266-26,208 as reported by the Institute for College Access and Success’ October 2008 report, Student Debt and the Class of 2007. Our default rate has consistently remained below the national average for comparable schools. University of Phoenix’s official FY 2007 cohort default rate of 9.3 percent, as published by the U.S. Department of Education, remains below the national average of 9.8 percent for comparable schools (4+ years) and below the national average of 11.0 percent for all proprietary schools combined. While this is a 29 percent increase over our previous year rate of 7.2 percent, default rates increased for all types of schools – public, private, and proprietary, as well as 4-year and 2-year alike. The FY 2007 national student loan cohort default rate increased to 6.7 percent, up from 5.2 percent, also a 29 percent increase over the 2006 rate.
ProPublica: The taxpayer actually makes money from the interest on these loans. But critics of the system say students often lose out. Not only are they deep in debt, they don't always have much to show for it.
Fact: University of Phoenix graduates earn significant increases in their personal income as a result of their degrees. In 2008, graduates of our associate degree programs earned an average increase of 19 percent in their personal income; graduates of our bachelor’s degree programs earned an average increase of 28 percent in their personal income; and our master’s degree program graduates earned an average increase of 25 percent in their personal income[1].
ProPublica: Clark didn’t qualify for federal student aid. So she paid some of the bill with credit cards. The rest she owes to a private lender, Sallie Mae.
Fact: University of Phoenix made the deliberate decision not to engage in private lending because we believed it was not in the best interests of our students. For Fiscal Year 2009, private loans accounted for less than 1 percent of parent Apollo Group’s net revenue.
ProPublica: The Apollo Group, which owns the University of Phoenix, made just shy of half-a-billion dollars in profit last year. But Barmak Nassirian says no one’s keeping a close eye on the quality of the education for-profit schools like Phoenix provide.
Fact: University of Phoenix is committed to transparency in our educational operations and welcomes regulatory examination. In fact, we are one of, if not the most, examined institution in the country. Since our inception, University of Phoenix has participated in 30 accreditation
visits by regional accrediting bodies, 35 evaluations by state education agencies, and undergone 10 administrative reviews by U.S. Department of Education. At our last Higher Learning Commission accreditation visit, University of Phoenix was awarded a 10-year grant of accreditation – the longest period of time for which an institution can receive approval without an interim review visit. University of Phoenix is committed to academic excellence. We are required to meet the same standards for academic quality as conventional four-year colleges and universities and, as a for-profit institution, meet the highest of regulatory requirements. The university is regionally accredited by the Higher Learning Commission and is a member of the North Central Association, one of six regional accrediting bodies considered to be the gold standard of accreditation. Regional accreditation is every bit as rigorous for University of Phoenix as it is for the other colleges and universities accredited by the North Central Association, which include Northwestern University, University of Notre Dame, University of Michigan, Ohio State University and University of Arizona, to name a few.
From AZ, 11/05/2009
I personally have attended the University of Phoenix and I, too, believe this article to be one sided and that the journalist has a preconceived notion of for-profit.
1. Take a look at any University. For-profit or non-profit; they're all out to earn money. Period. The difference between these Universities is that the for-profit institutions do not partake in government grants.
2. Each student that enrolls at the University of Phoenix has the opportunity to understand what Financial Aid is and what it consists of. This person interviewed obviously didn't read what she had signed or partake in any of the services offered by the University. If you purchase a car, you read the find print - there is no difference when financing a degree.
From Calera, AL, 11/05/2009
The greatest misnomer is the use of the term "federal aid." To the author's the term means "free money," as it seems to mean to many entering school. Qouting from Student Aid on the Web "If you're interested in financial aid for college or a career school, you've come to the right place. These programs provide more than $100 billion a year in grants, loans, and work-study assistance." Federal Student Aid includes loans, grants, and work-study programs. Anyone applying for Federal Student Aid must complete the Free Application for Federal Student Aid and on the application is asked questions regarding and states at the tope of page one of the paper form "Use this form to apply free for federal and state student grants, work-study and loans." Loans are part of the deal, and anyone applying for money to go to school knows they are not just getting free money, but they are also getting loans.
Schools like University of Phoenix serve a purpose in that because they do not rely on ACT or SAT scores for entrance, but are open enrollment, many who would not otherwise get the opportunity to advance their learning now do. And yes, they pay for it. Education is not free, even at state colleges and universities. There is a price to pay, and Federal Student Aid is the avenue. That colleges and universities that are private have found a way to deliver quality education and make a profit is what the real issue is. Hooray for capitalism, and shame on NPR for denegrating a system of education that works for hundreds of thousands of working adults who would otherwise go uneducated.
From NV, 11/05/2009
I can't say enough of how disappointed I am of NPR. I've been a loyal listener and supporter of NPR for the last 9 years. I used to start every morning on the way to work with NPR. I say 'used to' because I have decided not to listen to your station anymore. I attended the University prior to coming on board as an employee. I did my thorough research on various educational options and decided that UOP was the best option for me. I have attended public higher ed in the past and I have learned more from the University than any other schools for that matter. You should be embarrased of the new low your station has reached with this article. I will be sending a letter to the local NPR station asking for my donation back.
From Phoenix, AZ, 11/05/2009
Someone asked where the graduation rates were found. Here is a website you can use to see the rankings of all colleges who offer online classes. Click into the detail to see things like graduation rates. This is an annual ranking. According to this site (and I know at least 20 UOP employees who have confirmed it is accurate) UOP has an overall graduation rate of 4%. That is about the same number as their employees who are also students.
http://oedb.org/rankings
As far as the student who had no idea she had student loans, shame on her. How can you apply for loans and not realize you are taking out loans? I can't feel sorry for someone who simply doesn't pay attention or take responsability for their actions. All students should ask questions and actually read what they are signing up for!
Next item on my list is the quality of the education people may receive at UOP. I would say that it probably matters what degree program they are in. Someone else posted a comment that the value of your education/degree is really determined by the potential employers in your area. So, ASK THE EMPLOYERS what they think about a degree in XXX from UOP.
And last but not least, several people posted here that stated they are students of University of Phoenix and stated what a great education they are getting. Yet, they can't spell, use proper punctuation or grammar. Does that not count as being educated any more? Doesn't anyone else think it's important to possess these skills? Is this how they write their papers in school and do they get passing grades from their instructors? This is a professional, public forum. Not a texting chat room. Remember what happens when you post things and someone later Googles your name? They find everything you've ever done online. Is this what you want a potential employer to see when they Google your name?
I do feel like the article was pretty one sided. But I also know several employees who agree with what it says, several graduates who may as well not have a degree at all because of what employers think about their UOP degree and 2 people who have taught classes for them and laugh at the fact they can earn so much money by doing so little! So there is definately some truth to it. But I would have liked to hear from the other side of the coin in the article too. Why not speak to other for profit schools' employees, students and graduates and get some perspective. UOP is not the only online or for profit school out there.
From Knoxville, TN, 11/05/2009
I am an online student at University of Phoenix and was initially very disturbed by what I read. After doing my own research I realized that this article was very biased and untrue to journalistic standards. I have been a contributor and listener to National Public Radio for many years and had faith that there news would be unbiased and informative. It appears that for whatever reasons NPR has decided to use an article written by obviously biased authors. Unless a counter perspective is given in tonights broadcast I will no longer be a listener or a contributor. Shame on you NPR. I expect more from your broadcasts.
From AZ, 11/05/2009
We all make mistakes, I will be accountable for mine. Previously I posted the following. "Why would anyone through a year and half of school away?" Want I wanted to say was "Why would anyone THROW a year and half of school away?"
11/05/2009
As for private institutions of higher learning, if they are all money hungry we should stop them all. Here is a list of a few other "Private" universities as well....
University of Notre Dame
Willamette University
Northwestern University
Stanford University
University of Southern California (USC)
Brigham Young University
Yale University
Harvard University
Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT)
Texas Christian University
(Yahoo, 2009)
Looks like a shady list to me.. What ever happened to individual accountability in this country. We have people suing other people left and right, and from the looks of it, wanting free money to. I would bet that they must have more in Finical Aid Award money than the required cost of the school to attend. Don’t you have to fill out and do a Stafford LOAN entrance interview? Doesn’t it say it is a LOAN on it, and you have to pay it back? What did they do with the extra money? Were they crying then? Or is it that the education was to hard and they had a hard time completing it? Why would anyone through a year and half of school away?
Yes, I attend UoPx and am working on my MBA. Let me attest, that it is HEAVILY ESSAY based, and that it is NOT easy. I put in about 15 hours a week just for my ONE class. I do think the information and instruction is good. Unlike these two in the article, or other posting, I will be getting something for my money... a DEGREE. I also know why I chose a profession that requires an MBA rather than Journalism!
Yahoo Directory. (2009). U.S. Private Colleges and Universities. Retrieved from http://dir.yahoo.com/education/higher_education/colleges_and_universities/united_states/Private/
From Sacramento, CA, 11/05/2009
I am a Phoenix! And I am removing NPR from my radio dial. How dare you release such an embarassing display of inadequate journalism. I'll miss my morning edition, but I cannot support any organiztion that would allow such poor, disparaging, one-sided media. Did you hire this journalist from the Fox Cable News network?
From Gilbert, AZ, 11/05/2009
I am the wife of a Phoenix, and I am proud to be so. My husband has been in school for the last 7 years. He first earned his associate's from a junior college, then progressed to his bachelor's at UOP and now is two classes from his master's degree at UOP. Do we have loans? Absolutely! When Dave first started, we had one child. We now have 3, and will have our 4th in 2010. I am (now) a stay at home mom (yes, I do have my BSN from the University of Arizona).
The UOP standards for education are high. My husband has had to work hard every week to earn his grades. He has learned how to work better in a team environment because of their learning team assignments that are common to each class. The freedom that the UOP online education has provided for us has been invaluable. My husband has been able to complete his classwork after the kids have gone to bed or on the weekends when it doesn't take away from family time.
Was it worth getting loans? Absolutely! There is no way, in today's economy, that a single wage earning family can even consider going back for a degree without the loans. To the young lady who was shocked to find she owed money...well, I say shame on you. You should know better than to sign anything without fully understanding it and reading it. If you were truly coerced into getting a loan (which I highly doubt), you have no one to blame but yourself.
From San Francisco, CA, 11/05/2009
There are those proprietary educational companies that combine sales and management techniques from Glengarry Glenross, the Boiler room, and PT Barnum. University of Phoenix is just the biggest one. . I went through a Master's program at one of these schools as well as worked as an admissions advisor for two years. It was convenient, the books were solid resources, and the professors were competent at the graduate level.
Yet I was able to work an average of 52 hours a week and complete a Master's in a bit over a year by writing one 5-10 page paper in said week. In other words, it was way too easy. Employers know this and other schools know this.
While I appreciated the convenience, without pursuing another graduate or professional degree at a respected university, my graduate education is little more than something I could have ordered off of a matchbox in the eyes of prospective employers.
Of course, I did read the books and have the benefit of a solid primary and undergraduate education. Often, the people I spoke to in those two years did not have that benefit and it was obvious that their lack of preparation in primary school made them markedly easier to take advantage of in the sales process for those who were willing to do so.
Make no mistake about it, it was an institutional approach to pressure and deceive: Citing "urgency" and "admissions committees" which were both in fact non-existent. It was not just a few people being overly aggressive and deceptive as the spokesman for the industry postulates. (He obviously has a skewed sense of right and wrong.) These techniques were part of the institutional training and failure to use these techniques was a recipe for censure and dismissal.
Rather, it was the rare person who resisted this and actually recruited those who could benefit from a program. Yes, there are those who can benefit but just not as many as these modern day PT Barnums would like-hence the pressure to be deceptive.
These folks who were successful without being deceptive usually quit as soon as they could find another job. People have to eat and organizations like this can find willing workers in an economy where jobs are hard to find. (Opening an office/call center in say, Portland, Oregon where no one can find work is a good business approach. Then, churning through employees raidly also has a positive bottom line effect when they leave before they become eligible for benefits but are still productive for 3 months. But those are labor practices and a different subject for another time.
Regarding the degree, most of the market is aware of the reality of a mediocre, at best, education. Therefore, the degree isn't really respected in the marketplace. Nevertheless, there is a real need for this type of program in our country. The real crime is not their sales approach but their sorry learning outcomes for those who would be better served by attending a community college at a small percentage of the cost of these schools.
These programs may be good for people in the workforce already who need a "jump through this hoop" degree to get a promotion because they're quick and convenient.
But for those who aren't in the workforce who want to compete for jobs requiring a college education, the learning outcomes are not adequate, aren't adequately pursued by the organization, and they're just not competitive with a graduate who has had some rigor in their undergraduate and graduate education.
It's more about the federal financial aid than a solid educational product. Some of these undergraduate students should have been sent back to complete high school. That's another whole discussion though isn't it?
It is only in a country with a documentably failing educational system and no oversight on how we're using our scant resources to properly educate our citizens that something like this can happen.
It will not change until the regions which provide the accreditation for these schools become more vigilant and demanding regarding learning outcomes.
There is a need for the basic opportunities that these organizations provide but with the emphasis on getting the federal aid into the coffers rather than providing a real educational foundation for success, most of their undergraduate students would be better off attending a community college first and tben trying to find an appropriate state school.
There is a reason some of the better schools in this country don't accept transfer credits from University of Phoenix and it's not just arrogance and snobbishness. It's a realization that the learning outcomes are weak and don't prepare the student for real academic rigor and at the end, a real professional career. They won't be able to compete well as a group, though there are those individuals who could attend Bobby's Back Yard Barbecue and School of Higher Education that will do well regardless of where they go to school or even if they do at all.
There are, undoubtedly, many people really committed to education who work in this for profit arena. Unfortunately, they're not in charge and all one has to do is inquire to University of Phoenix and the direct competition to see how they do what they do.
If one is not appalled, then there's no accounting for common sense and a realistic sense of what is right and what is wrong.
If the state schools in this country want to find ways to grow and contribute the the betterment of the educational mess that we are devolving into, they'd take a page from University of Phoenix and Career Education Corporation, and begin developing proprietary and robust online educational opportunities for our citizens.
Failing to do so is a missed opportunity and short sighted.
My fear is that our inability to take the long view regarding education is going to result in a populace that simply won't be able to compete with the rest of the world 30 years from now. Schools with shoddy outcomes and PT Barnum sales techniques aren't going to enable us to compete with European and Asian cultures which are providing solid primary and secondary educational opportunites for their people.
We are wasting our precious resources by sending our money to these schools.
The first step is that the accrediting bodies need to care more about their educational product. If they did, these schools would have to step up.
From chandler, AZ, 11/05/2009
I also have to disagree with what seems as a very biased article. I am a full time student with Univerisity of Phoenix and have also attended several other schools. I work full time and the only way I would be able to go to school and keep my job is to attend online courses. There are several items mentioned which are common place at every university I myself attended prior as well as many of my friends. First I would like to start with what the article seemed to stress as something out of the usual which is the majority of students at University of Phoenix use financial aid. I used financial aid at all my prior schools as well as my friends. We do not have trust funds to pay for our schooling and we along with millions of other Americans need financial aid to pay for our educations. I would like to know if the author of the article has a degree and if they used financial aid. My guess is yes unless they had a trust fund set up. The skills for learning clas that was brought up is another example of something that is important and common at most universities. I have a friend at ASU who is currently in ASU 100 which the entire content of the class is very similar to the skills for learning class I have taken at Univeristy of Phoenix. It seems the author simply focused on for profit universities but has no problem with state universities which by the way the majority of their students are using financial aid as well as receiving subsidies from the federal governemnt on top of their tuition paid for by federally backed loans. If the author is concerned about this they should be speaking about all universities since they all have students who use financial aid and since state universities also received subsidies from the government which one is costing the tax payers more money? I am also concerned with the story that a student thought they didn't have a loan. Anyone who uses financial aid such as myself knows that I have to select a lender and fill out a master promisorry note. I also get a notification from University of Phoenix when my financial aid is complete and it tells me what amount of my STUDENT LOANS were awarded as well as they are being sent. For me to say I did not realize I have a student loan I would have had to fil out a Master Promissory note and sign it without realizing I just picked a lender and signed a document promising to pay back my loan and ignore the letters I have received from the university as well as updates from my lender on my current loan balance and interest acrued.
From Queen Creek, AZ, 11/05/2009
I am currently employed at the University of Phoenix as an enrollment counselor and I have never been pushed or asked to perform any unethical or immoral practices to enroll any student at any time.
I am not a very productive enrollment counselor as I have not enrolled very many students in my 8 months here but I have never ever in my 30 years of being in the work force ever worked for a company or business that has treated me as well as the University of Phoenix has treated me.
I am surrounded by all levels of diversity as a current enrollment counselor and I work with some of the most productive enrollment counselors in the company (enrolling many students monthly)and they have NEVER mislead or practiced any unethical business practices to help students go back to school.
I hear their conversations daily they don't force or manipulate anyone into enrollment or financial aid,or personnel debt and they make sure that there are no surprises financially or otherwise prior to the student making the decision to attend UOP.
I hope that my career with the UOP is long and fruitful,I want to continue my education and career at the UOP and hope that other middle aged people will get the same wonderful benefits that
I have received, great work surroundings,great people,great friends and the opportunity to finish my education.
The negative comments made by others sound embellished I am not saying things are perfect anywhere but they are darn close to being perfect for me at UOP.
I think the UOP is doing great things for adult students,for the economy,for the employees and for the future, I WANT TO BE A PHOENIX !
From Cleveland, OH, 11/05/2009
I admit, before I came to the University of Phoenix as an Enrollment Counselor and now a Masters student, I knew little about the University or its mission. I just thought it was an online school that was all over the country. Now, I know that the University of Phoenix is dedicated to helping students who may not otherwise be able to obtain a college degree. I went to a traditional Big Ten school for my undergrad. Yes, I did well. Yes, I had the support of my family and friends. However, I did NOT have a good support system within the school itself and was left to fend for myself. I am proud that from the day a student inquires to the University of Phoenix, we support them on both an administrative and acedemic level, counsel them and help them achieve their goals. I work with people who AMAZE me every single day in regards to their ethics and integrity. We work so hard to ensure our students are well informed and know what they are getting into. We have very stringent guidelines in regards to acedemic and financial counseling. We are audited internally. I enroll people who are serious about graduating. Yes, we have enrollment goals but we also have retention goals. Retention = graduation. I do not enroll people who I think are going to drop out or take the money and run. I value education. I value my students. I believe EVERYONE deserves the opportunity to obtain a degree and make a better life for themselves. No school is perfect but we work to give people who may otherwise have no outlet, no chance, an opportunity to really succeed. I recommend you interview my students who cross every culture, gender, age, socio-economic and interest level and then see what type of story you have on your hands. I really enjoy Marketplace and listen to it daily. I support and donate to NPR and my local affiliate. I expect more.
From Elmhurst, NY, 11/05/2009
I got my BSM last summer (2009) and I register to start y MBA in a week at University of Phoenix. I like the fact that I don’t have to sit in a classroom sharing space with people who don’t want to learn. Online is self process that I love. My complain about UOP is the fact that is so difficult to resolve financial issues since when I started my Bachelor I was absolutely convince that I have the regular financial aid (mean that I am not getting involve in debts) but after one year in class I receive a summary of my debt from Sallie Mae for $20.000.oo So when I call for explanation they told me that it was financial aid for not the same as I have before from my prior College where I earned my associated degree. I was feeling so sad and I just keep moving ahead since I was almost finishing my classes is like no more choice.
I say that financial advisor trick me up making me believe that I have 100% financial aid when I had 100% student loan that mean absolutely two different things. However, when I went to Phoenix for the commandments it was great the experience since you see how $22.000.oo work for fancy ceremony, University tours, souvenirs, and so on.
I am defending the quality of the education that they have, I just questioning how they lie to the student financially talking.
From Cleveland, OH, 11/05/2009
I am a University of Phoenix employee and graduate of both UOP and a traditional college. As far as college education, I can honestly say my experience at UOP far exceeded the traditional school. The instructors are employed in his or her field of study and bring these experiences to the classroom. College is what you make of it such as is life.
I am a proud employee of the University of Phoenix. I commend the University for high standards, continuous training, and contributions for the betterment of society.
I find this article and many comments disheartening for the many successful students, employees, and faculty who give back every day to help change lives for the better.
From Jacksonville, FL, 11/05/2009
I am a UOP graduate, BSB/M degree program. I can say with full conviction that I earned my degree through hard work and diligence. Every class I took taught me something new. My mandatory Learning Team gave me one of the most valuable learning experiences I could ever have hoped for at a school. My instructors were all well-informed professionals working within the fields they were teaching. I was held accountable. I was made fully aware of my student loan responsibilities and academic responsibilities during my enrollment process: I also made sure I read everything before signing it. My degree has served me well. It has opened up doors of opportunities that would have otherwise stayed closed. If you cannot get a job with a UOP degree it is because of you--not the degree: Thousands upon thousands of us are proof of that. It is not fair that some people project their failures onto others. You are responsible for completing your own due dilegence. You are ultimately responsible for your own ignorance. You cannot go through life blaming others for your failures. Be accountable. Take responsibility. Maybe if some of these people would have stayed in school and worked harder they would have a completely different opinion. I would bet that the vast majority of these students who are complaining about UOP still haven't finished earning their degree. Oh and by the way, the operative word here is EARN. And yes, school costs money. Do you actually expect it to be free?!
From Cleveland, OH, 11/05/2009
I am an avid listener of NPR & have been for 7 years & this is the worst, most biased & unresearched broadcast I have ever heard. I am offended. I have been a high school guidance counselor of seniors for 2 years & networked with many college enrollment counselors; last year, due to the economy & a move, I could not find a high school job & after 6 months of unemployment I accepted a job at University of Phoenix as an Enrollment Counselor. At the Cleveland campus each counselor receives multiple annual day-long trainings on how to advise students in accordance to standards that meet both the Higher Learning Commission requirements (the same commission who also accredits The Ohio State University & Ohio University; we all have the highest level of accreditation offered in the U.S.) & requirements for being able to offer students federal financial aid. We must meet these standards, as any other accredited college does, to function. As for people who got nothing out of their earned credits - if students earned a credit at UPX & passed with a C- or higher, they would be able to transfer that to ANY college that shares National Accreditation – which included all highly accredited state & community colleges, and most private colleges. As for high pressure tactics – that is ludicrous. Enrollment Counselors only call students who personally have inquired online, in person, or who have been referred by a UPX student. If an enrollment counselor’s personality is more aggressive and/or leads to irresponsible borrowing for their student, then they are not doing the job they were trained for. I am proud to work for a company that is doing well in this economy, the employees have high morale & we are the largest university in the country – over 400,000 enrolled student & many more alumni. When numbers are that high, there will be some disgruntled students, and shame on NPR for making our hundreds of thousands of students, alums & employees question the college that they earned their HIGHLY ACCREDITED degrees from, or work for. Additionally, I also worked for Case Western Reserve University, one of the top universities in the U.S., in Admissions for four years, and am as proud to work at UPX, as I was to work for Case.
From Phoenix, AZ, 11/05/2009
I am disappointed with such a biased story reported from what was a reputable show. The manner in which it was introduced was very misleading , or the reporter did not understand her assignment. I thought the story was about for-profit education, but it turned out to be a poor attempt to ridicule University of Phoenix and its students who have dedicated so much time and effort into earning their degrees. A proper approach would include other for-profit schools, and it would balance views from both sides to keep it close to what the Marketplace had originally promised. The reporter for this story should have used other sources to balance her story with the sources she had, such as Rambo who did not read the loan application. She answered questions such as “what amount are you requesting for your loan”? Someone “dropped the ball” long before she enrolled in University of Phoenix. As for Clark, eh… I think her vocabulary speaks for itself… Defaulted loans, schools left with debt, let’s blame the schools, because the students who drop out always have legitimate excuses to give up; “It’s too hard”, “too much work”, “I thought it would be easier”, “I didn’t think I would have to do actual assignments”. I could go on and on, but I think I have made my point. Everyone wants to blame everyone else for their failures, and are always looking for the easy way out. Bottom line, If you used the services, you are responsible for paying. Amy Scott, your story is a joke.
From New York, NY, 11/05/2009
I got my BSM last summer (2009) and I register to start y MBA in a week at University of Phoenix. I like the fact that I don’t have to sit in a classroom sharing space with people who don’t want to learn. Online is self process that I love. My complain about UOP is the fact that is so difficult to resolve financial issues since when I started my Bachelor I was absolutely convince that I have the regular financial aid (mean that I am not getting involve in debts) but after one year in class I receive a summary of my debt from Sallie Mae for $20.000.oo So when I call for explanation they told me that it was financial aid for not the same as I have before from my prior College where I earned my associated degree. I was feeling so sad and I just keep moving ahead since I was almost finishing my classes is like no more choice.
I say that financial advisor trick me up making me believe that I have 100% financial aid when I had 100% student loan that mean absolutely two different things. However, when I went to Phoenix for the commandments it was great the experience since you see how $22.000.oo work for fancy ceremony, University tours, souvenirs, and so on.
I am defending the quality of the education that they have, I just questioning how they lie to the student financially talking.
From New York, NY, 11/05/2009
I got my BSM last summer (2009) and I register to start y MBA in a week at University of Phoenix. I like the fact that I don’t have to sit in a classroom sharing space with people who don’t want to learn. Online is self process that I love. My complain about UOP is the fact that is so difficult to resolve financial issues since when I started my Bachelor I was absolutely convince that I have the regular financial aid (mean that I am not getting involve in debts) but after one year in class I receive a summary of my debt from Sallie Mae for $20.000.oo So when I call for explanation they told me that it was financial aid for not the same as I have before from my prior College where I earned my associated degree. I was feeling so sad and I just keep moving ahead since I was almost finishing my classes is like no more choice.
I say that financial advisor trick me up making me believe that I have 100% financial aid when I had 100% student loan that mean absolutely two different things. However, when I went to Phoenix for the commandments it was great the experience since you see how $22.000.oo work for fancy ceremony, University tours, souvenirs, and so on.
I am defending the quality of the education that they have, I just questioning how they lie to the student financially talking.
From Cleveland, OH, 11/05/2009
I have to say that I am very disappointed with the negative rap that the University of Phoenix is receiving from this news story. I have been employed by the University of Phoenix for almost 4 years and can honestly say that we are here to give people the opportunity and help them work towards and obtain a college degree. I have enrolled single parents, minorities, all age groups and have seen them graduate. We are here to help the people who want to be helped, to say anything else or to say that we target is absolutely ridiculous. We have the accreditaion and our students work hard to receive that degree. Many of my students are the first to graduate from college ever in their family, do you realize how good that makes someone feel. Our school is here to help and we take pride in doing so.
11/05/2009
It took me 31 years to receive my associates degree. I went through the "traditional route" trying to work full time and take care of a family. classes were limited and often filled up before I could get into it. The people who ran the schools appeared as if they needed to take some of their own business classes because they made it so hard to enroll and be a student. I then found the university of Phoenix and because of their flexability and commitment to my success, I finished my degree in 8 months and have now begun a bachelors degree in managment. The classes are challenging and I am learning something new everyday.
As for the journalist ( and I use this term loosly) who wrote this article, Amy Scott, It might have served her better if she would have paid attention more in her history class when the studied about "Yellow Journalism". This is the biggest piece of contrived nonsense I have ever read and the Marketplace should be embarrased they ever ran such a article. Had she done interviews with a wide variety of students, including those who did graduate, She would have learned a much different story. I meet UOP graduates almost everyday and they are happy about their experience. This article is just one more example how true journalism has been corrupted to nothing more than opinion pieces written to forward one's adjenda. Lets all observe a moment of silence for the death of journalism in America. You are missed.
From San Diego, CA, 11/05/2009
Sorry to tell most of you that Miss Amy has some accurate facts about UOP. I worked for them as an enrollment counselor then promoted up to their corporate education. The pressure on enrollment counselors to enroll a minimum of 7-12 students per month is undue influence. Fact, 60% of Associate Degree seekers drop out-true true.The associate program is terrible. Trying to get a student enrolled in this program is a nightmare for an enrollment counselor because of the staff supporting this point of revenue. Not knowing that you have just signed up for a student loan? Not buying that story at all. UOP does advise, counsel, explain and communicate the obligation to students and potential students that they are getting a student loan. With any financial obligation isn't it up to the consumer to read the fine print and ask questions? Umm the housing market experienced the same issue. One comment about student loans made in another post is also true- the student loan is the most collectible debt in the U.S. Why do you think Obama supports higher education? More loans will artificially stimulate the economy. The students that did post in this forum talking about their positive experiences have some truths to them. Obtaining my undergrad from UOP was a great experience for me at one particular campus that I worked at. They don't all operate the same. AFter accepting a promotion and moving to another state I started my MBA. I am four classes away from my MBA. I am wondering how I will pay the student loan back because my salary definitely does not coincide with that obligation. Most likely I'll be deceased by time those two loans are paid off. Working for UOP I had to take a tremendous pay cut, was promised by enrolling students I would receive from 6-20% pay increase for enrollment. That didn't happen. The management staff threatens employees to fire them for failure to perform. Creates a cut throat environment, pits employees against one another, makes rules for one employee over the other- so bad that I wondered if they knew who John Sperling was. They obviously did not go to the same John Sperling school of business that I attended in another state. The management staff at their San Diego campus is the worst ever. There are law suits being filed by employees. The manager I had told me the model of employee they want: Replace don't Chase! Meaning hire and fire rather than cultivate and nurture good employees. I was told from day one when I started at this campus to "Never trust anyone at this campus." What kind of message does this say to a new employee? All their campuses in San Diego are filled with managers that may not have a degree, get promoted for all the wrong reasons, and basically have their heads up their #@%!! The corporate education leg of that campus is a mess. They have had some 49+ corporate education employees in the past four years. What does that tell you about management of that campus? There are lawsuits being filed, people going out on medical stress leave, people with no degrees getting promoted without degrees that have no clue how to manage. I felt like I was selling electrolux vacum cleaners with the misguided direction from those idiots they called CELM's at the San Diego campus! One the CELM's accompanied me on a business meeting call to a mid size company and I was completely embarrassed and ashamed of that person's lack of integrity and unprofessional antics. That was an excruciating experience. I learned very quickly what an idiot for a CELM that I had. Left me wondering how and why would you promote someone like them? But it happens. Now if you are of the lesbian orientation then you will definitely want to work there. You won't get promoted or move anyplace at that campus unless you swing in that area. From the director down the entire corporate hierarchy it flows this way. They treat one another with disrespect and it flows down to employees too. Employees continue to put up with these behaviors because society needs to work and needs benefits. A call for self-survival- it is expensive to live in S.Cal so you put up with those antics. Yet UOP continues to spend $2mill or so a month on aggressive campaign ads. They purchased their own advertising company a few years ago. Suggest you read investor relations pages under Apollo Group. This actually was a brilliant move because of what company they purchased. The house of cards can only stand so long. As more employees come forward and find the strength to endure a lawsuit to right them for the wrongs committed upon them and to them, the real truth will surface. More forums like Miss Amy's will continue to make it across the internet to inform society. What is behind those doors at that Enrollment Department would shock and astound the average person! There is freedom of speech portion of the U.S.Constitution that permits me to voice my opinion even though it may not coincide with others' views in this forum. Keep up the good work Miss Amy. I support what you are doing- informing society on truths about a system that has burdened many! Ultimately I made the decision to not continue working for UOP; this was the best move for me and one I will never regret.
From Gilbert, AZ, 11/05/2009
I enrolled as a student at the Sacramento CA campus in 2005. Two years later I graduated and came to work for the University as an enrollment counselor. I am currently an enrollment manager who trains counselors, and almost done with a Masters in Accountancy. The expectations for the way students are advised at UOPX are extremely high, I demand that my counselors take exceptional care in advising the students of all their options, taking time to understand their goals and find the best degree program for them - in some cases telling them we don't have a good option for them. This is the norm, not an exception. The instructors I have had have been some of the most accomplished professionals I have ever come into contact with. When there is a problem, the University listens and responds. The ONE class I had (in 3+ years of school)where the instructor was really not doing the job, the University replaced that instructor by week 3 of the class, offered additional tutoring and other assistance. I never received the level of service and counseling at community college as I have here at UOPX. This article lacks scholarship, there was obviously no due diligence and it rests entirely on anecdotal 'evidence' with no consideration as to whether this represents what happens here on a daily basis.
From AZ, 11/05/2009
Why is the University of Phoenix being scrutinized for "making a profit in this current economic climate"? Isn't that good thing? The university paid almost a billion dollars in taxes last year – isn't that a good thing? Instead of taking from the government coffers, they are contributing to it. Considering the recent government bailouts, this is refreshing. The company also donates millions to charity.
The University of Phoenix brings the opportunity for education to the masses. The notion that learning can only happen by sitting in a crowded lecture hall, listening to a lecture by a professor whose only experience in the real world is what he’s read in a book, is outdated and elitist.
From Gilbert, AZ, 11/05/2009
Looks like Amy Scott was out of options for a story and picked a fight with students who are proud of their education. I know I am. Did she get denied a promotion because she didn’t have a University of Phoenix degree? No school is perfect, at least the University of Phoenix strives to continually improve. Good luck keeping up brick and mortar. If not for this university, what other school could have lead our country to higher education? What other school could have improved the quality of life so dramatically for so many of our countrymen? What other school could have given so many citizens of our country the gift of offering a better future to their children???
Way to post terribly biased un-factual media. Marketplace was on my RSS feeds, I won’t be viewing their articles EVER again. Sponsors of Marketplace, I encourage you to reconsider who you sponsor.
From Phoenix, AZ, 11/05/2009
Marketplace doesn't seem to have their facts in order! The University of Phoenix has been able to offer students a viable education that is equal to many other institutions. Where many students who have families and jobs do not have the time to go to a community college at night, the University of Phoenix offers a more flexible schedule to help students achieve a degree sooner so that they can be more marketable in the workforce. if not for financial aid, many students could not afford to achieve their goals of earning an education. With the help and encouragement of Enrollment Counselors and other staff at the University of Phoenix, many students have reached their goal of earning an education that they can be proud of for themselves and their families.
From Phoenix, AZ, 11/05/2009
I am a Phoenix and could not be more proud of that fact. I understand that in a perfect world we all live with mom and dad straight out of HS and attend a local Community College and then a State School. But unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world and I am so thankful the UOP gave me a second chance. I will graduate with my BA next year and I've thoroughly enjoyed my experience.
I'd be willing to bet that for every disgruntled student at UOP, there are 20 that are more than satisfied with their experience.
From Chicago, IL, 11/05/2009
Thanks NPR for airing this. Now, in the midst of the worst job market in decades, you are calling into question the education of thousands of hard working people who graduated from UoP. Even if there are bad enrollment practices and even if there are some losers who enroll thinking it's all easy, why hurt the careers of so many honest people who paid their tuition and studied hard? With all of the press you give the financial crisis, it's funny how you don't mind hurting the chances of UoP graduates getting jobs, huh? You should be ashamed.
From Phoenix, AZ, 11/05/2009
As both a student and employee of the University of Phoenix, I feel compelled to comment on this story and set a few things straight. All new students have a conversation with their Finance Counselor upon beginning classes which goes over Federal Financial Aid and any Pell Grants which may be awarded. In addition, Ms. Rambo would have had to re-apply for this Financial Aid after one year into her Associates degree. Even if you give her the benefit of the doubt that she was overwhelmed with admissions paperwork and didn't realize that Financial Aid was a student loan, surely the second time she applied for money and chose a LENDER she would have thought about that fact. Ms. Clark's upset at the desert island exercise is without foundation, as this is a common lesson through all higher education. I saw this several times through my own Bachelor's degree at a state University. She sounds like a classic case of someone who took one class then dropped out of school. As other comments have mentioned, perhaps it would be good reporting to interview someone who actually finished their degree with UOPX? Where did Marketplace do their research on the graduation rates at UOPX? They mention that their are half of the 60% average? This is absolutely false. In the year that I have been an Academic Counselor, I have had around a 50% graduation rate with my Bachelor and Master level students, and this is only slightly above the University average. The best part of my job is calling my students to congratulate them and let them know their degree has been conferred and after their years of hard work, their diploma is on its way. As a University of Phoenix student, I can tell you that I put in more time and effort to my online classes than I ever had to in my Undergraduate studies. You truly get out what you put in, and I think it is a shame for Marketplace to discredit those hard-working individuals who are bettering their lives through higher education. Not all students of the University are oblivious to what is in front of them, and the two stories shared are not a valid representation of the institution. I recommend anyone truly interested in the facts, rather than these bogus and biased accusations take time to check out University of Phoenix's newsroom. http://www.upxnewsroom.com/record/
From Honolulu, ID, 11/04/2009
I think the Allegations against U of P are true; this because I lived through them. I think the federal goverment should investigate and take away there Education Status. By the amount of people on this site that have felt so compelled to write; there must be something to this. Where there's smoke there's fire! I too inrolled at U of P because our local community college's here in Hawaii are not down the street.
There sattlite campus was 2 blocks from work and work's tution assitance paid for it. What a deal, I thought! My impression of University of Phoenix, the first time I walked into Campus. Was like it was a cult. Young, Blond, girls with tight dresses and low cut tops to sign you up for classes and keep you signed up. "Do'nt drop that class, we have conselars to help you"
"And since your here in the office, Would you like to sign up for next semester's classes NOW!
In the end our Employee Tution program ended up paying University of Phoenix for classes that I dropped too late; due to deceptive and high pressure tactics to keep enrolled in these classes, and sign up for future classes ASAP; that I was later was put in debt for. Consequently, I filed a complaint about the school’s ways of doing business with The Hawaii Consumer Affairs Department. For all my efforts, University of Phoenix put my balence due in collections. A good school for a 60 mins or Michael Moore documentary.
From Tempe, AZ, 11/04/2009
First, I want to say that I have worked at several higher education institutions including the University of Phoenix. I have found that the University of Phoenix changes lives! University of Phoenix is a valuable and legitimate institution. I have been witness to any fraudulent or deceptive practices.
I received my MBA from another highly regarded University. In my program, we did the Survival Project that Katherine Clark refers to, and it was a great exercise in decision making and critical thinking. Perhaps Katherine should have paid a little more attention to her studies.
Amy Scott, I plead with you to be a genuine journalist and do your research. Assumptions and fallacies do not get you anywhere in life. I am ashamed to have paid any mind to your “reporting”.
11/04/2009
Please tell me what school isn't really for profit. How much money do these big name college football coaches make per year?? How about the Presidents of those Universities? "Non-profit" universities' luxury is that they don't rely on their students- they rely on government funding. This article is a joke.
11/04/2009
With 420,000 students and the ability to attain federal funding (as well as full regional accreditation), how can you say that the University of Phoenix is not a "real" education? How would it have been able to sustain for over 30 years? These two "examples" obviously didn't do their own homework. You have to sign documents stating you are taking out federal loans. Period. These young ladies obviously didn't read the required legal documents required of attaining these loans.
Please do your research as well. Bill Pepicello is no longer the President of the University of Phoenix and hasn't been for several years
From TX, 11/04/2009
I am a former University of Phoenix student, but not a graduate. While I question some methods used in classes and didn't always high opinions of my professors, I worked hard and earned my grades. (Though, I must admit wondering about the grades of my less than stellar classmates.) With U of P, you get out what you put in. Frankly, Strategies for Lifelong Learning was one of the best classes I’ve ever taken because it helped me identify my learning style.
I do not doubt that some students were misled or misinformed. It would not at all surprise me if some staff intentionally misled people in pursuit of a larger paycheck or meeting a quota. The ‘counselors’ were persistent, usually helpful but with an air of someone employed in the customer service department of a telecommunications company. Ok – maybe not that bad.
Because the degrees offered would only have helped me move up in Corporate America, I decided to end my participation at the same time I left my corporate job in an effort to save my soul.
I was lucky enough to have my tuition fully paid by my employer so I didn’t incur any debt, but any ‘higher education’ will cost money. It sounds like those stuck in these precarious financial situations are exactly those most in need of education.
From Los Angeles, CA, 11/04/2009
Great article, thank you very much. The academic quality of a UOP degree is horrible. For a short time I helped teach some courses, including an economics course. I was prepared to fail almost 60% of the class for an assignment when I spoke to the professor leading the course. According to him, if students turned in anything (half page or other nonsense) for their 10 page essay, I was to give them a "C" or a "B" for this assignment? In every other college this would be an incomplete or an automatic "F." After a few more requests to dumb down the assignments, I decided to move to another college. I would probably not hire someone with a degree from UOP.
From AZ, 11/04/2009
This article is very typical of the media, completely one sided and not the truth. You make it seem like it about "private schools" but it is solely about the University of Phoenix. I attended a private school in the midwest from 1997-2000 that cost $21,000 per year tuition, room, and board. When starting school, I was fully aware of my financial aid package. Shortly after I graduated from college and moving to Arizona, I began working in the financial services industry where I was pressured into selling families life insurance that they could not afford 529 plans for their children, and putting money in the market that is now probably lost. After leaving the financial services industry because I did not agree with these tactics, I started to work for the University of Phoenix in the Axia program. I have worked for the University of Phoenix for over 5 years and have never pressured a student into starting school when they were not ready or mislead a student in regards to student loans nor was I told that I had to. One thing that I have learned over the last five years is that what I do makes a difference in these people's lives and that the University of Phoenix cares about these students and their success at our school. Students are given a chance that they were not given at the community college or the university. A great example is when a family situation arises and the student must leave school to take care of a family member, that school fails them out of all of their classes and keeps their financial aid for that semester. The University of Phoenix has policies that protect the student's in these cases. Furhtermore, I always tell my students that I am there for them and I want them to succeed, in order for this to happen they must let me know if they are having problems and that communication is the key to their success. I have changed the lives of hundreds of students and am very proud of that fact. It upsets me to hear stories like this one, especially since you targeted the University of Phoenix because of our success.
I do have my bachelor's degree from another private instituation that cost far more than the University of Phoenix does and I worked very hard for my education and learned alot. I have also earned a certificate in Project Management from the University of Phoenix and am working on a Master's degree in Justice Administration from the University of Phoenix which all has required hard work on my part and I feel that I have learned far more at UOPX than I did in my undergrad because UOPX is not about test taking but about applying knowledge from the real world with my education. Anyone that wants a good education should do the same and not think that online schools are the easy way out.
From San Jose, CA, 11/04/2009
I completed my BS in Business Management at UOP, and my next job paid almost twice as much. This degree was HARD and TIME CONSUMING, but I learned a lot and became a confident business person. We wrote papers, gave presentations, and did team projects. Completely APPLICABLE to my career.
I did a masters program in counseling psychology at a different, high regarded university. It was much more expensive than UOP. Working as an unpaid intern for three years did not appeal to me, so I put counseling on the back burner and decided to get my MBA.
Where to go? UOP. Without a second thought. They made it easy to register, and the class times work. The course work is HARD and TIME CONSUMING. But it is an excellent program and I have learned a lot - again...
I actually got a decent job in this terrible economy.
BTW, I go to class. I wouldn't do the online program, because you actually have to put in a LOT MORE work than if you went to class. I have heard the online program is VERY HARD.
This "journalist" is biased and uneducated about UOP. Talk to the many people who have benefitted from the programs, rather than one loser who couldn't even get through two classes.
SHEESH!
From Chicago, IL, 11/04/2009
I graduated from Florida A&M University with my MBA in Finance and Marketing. I graduated with $36k in debt. When I started I didn't know how I was going to pay it down but I knew I needed a tool to survive in this country since it will not support me if I don't use that tool to contribute to it! Therefore it has been up to me to decide how I would pay that debt back. I decided to join the Army Reserve before I entered my grad years. I made this decission becasue I knew that I'd have a load of debt to pay down when I graduated and I needed to find a way to pay it down. Therefore I made the decission to pay it down useing half of every check I got through the 8 YEARS I SERVED IN THE ARMY IN AFGANISTAN and if called IN IRAQ, fighting a war I DIDN"T START!
As a UoP student who is persuing his second master's degree, I say that the system is not perfect but at least there are opportunities to live a better life through it.
I wouldn't earn what I am now if I didn't have my MBA and I could now have afforded it without the debt that I'm paying off now.
But thank GOD for the debt and the work that I had / have to do that makes me think of how to pay it down and live in my home / rent it out, at a fair rate, in this bad economy. College transforms you to become a better person.
FAMU did that and I paid for it UoP is giving me tools to do more than I am now. SO I'LL PAY FOR IT! SO THAT I WON'T HAVE TO DIE IN A WAR THAT I DID NOT START!
11/04/2009
Like the interviewee, I too made the mistake of attending UOP for about a year at the behest of one of my co-workers. Quite frankly I found the quality of classwork and the level of rigor to be far below that of even a community college. I essentially gave up those credits and started over at a traditional school because I was more interested in gaining a legitimate education than taking the easy way out. In the end it cost me far less, and I took away considerably more than I ever would have, had I stayed at UOP. Many corporations are starting to single out for-profit universities from educational reimbursement plans due to the quality of education received by their graduates, the US Government should do the same.
From Chicago, IL, 11/04/2009
In this interview the former student Katherine Clark states that she didnt qualify for student aid. What is student aid? Everyone assumes that the federal aid program is only made up of grants. Well it is not! It also has federal non credit based student loans, which are given to students. Sallie mae is not only a private lender, but the also manage the federal loan funds for the government, so she was paying federal loans through sallie mae. Grants are need based only and that is only a part of federal aid. Michele Rambo states she was told she was covered--this is impossible because after enrolling a financial aid counselor calls them to go over their funding. Some students hear what they want to hear. Yes Michele was covered, meaning that with federal pell and federal loans she has no out of pocket expense while in school. Books are included in the tuition at a local college she would have to have a few hundred bucks to cover that cost. Also, any student who thinks that just an AA degree will open doors is mistaken. Most students are aware and consulted on the fact that they are completing an AA because they have never been to college before or have little credits. The AA degree is also a lot less expensive and it is a good starting point. NPR should do a story on how many people have benefited from having a degree, like MSNBC anchor woman Christina Brown. UOPX has a market and most local colleges cannot compete because the government wont fund them for the resources it takes. UOPX is for profit but can also use that profit to create a better educational platform. I am convinced that students who fail at UOPX would have failed elsewhere. Chicago state was just on the news for accreditation issues and if you swing by harold washington CC downtown, you will also see a large student body cutting class and hanging outside--why? Because the education is free maybe? If you arent paying for it sometimes you dont value it.
From Jacksonville, AR, 11/04/2009
As a doctoral learner with the University of Phoenix, I can vouch for the rigor of the program. Perhaps a responsible journalist from your organization would be interested in attempting a degree program with this respected learning institution. ?Financial aid is similar to the academic rigor in that it is the student's responsibility to make the appropriate choices. How odd is it in any arena to think one does not have to repay a loan? I am sitting here shaking my head about this article.
11/04/2009
I am always shocked to find people who want to tear down an establishment that brings education to the masses. I think it would seem a logical assumption that someone who is not smart enough to know when they apply for a loan, would also not be smart enough to complete their education. News Flash: College is not for everyone. When you are the size of UOPX, guess what, you will have a higher number of defaults. It is quite comical that the bulk of commentary against that school results from students enrolling and finding out IT IS A REAL SCHOOL. People put down online educations, and then defend those who cannot succeed there. Open enrollment does not mean that it is easy. I checked and the school is accredited at a Regional level. If you do not know what that means, go ask the school you went to and you will know that it is the same level or higher than yours. As far as defaulting on student loans, why is UOPX being blamed for Title IV funding regulations that are imposed by the Government? It is interesting to me that people think there is some conspiracy, like the Department of Education does not review their practices like any other school. I went to a traditional state University and I got straight A's attending class sometimes and showing up for exams only. At UOPX, you have to attend class four days a week and actively engage in the discussion or you are dropped from class. This is why I hesitate after I called them because it seems like such a commitment. I am tired of hearing complaints from people who simply found out that college is not for them and lack accountability. Of course people want to put down an education that was received online. It is 100% fear based. Who wants to compete with that many graduates? Traditional schools are suffering and are desperate for students. My school just short of harrasses me to go back for my Masters. If you put down online education, that is how you ensure that your degree continues to hold value. Let's get real people, what are you so afraid of? This is high school sociology in its truest form. Traditional Universities are the cool crowd who keeps their status through exclusion of others. The Online Universities are the nerdy kids who are smart and nice, but nobody took the time to get to know them. Plus, why is no one mentioning the fact that MOST traditional schools are offering more and more of their courses online every semester....only they have no clue how to run them properly.
From CA, 11/04/2009
Like others, I completed an exercise similar to the "desert island" cited here in an executive education program - at an Ivy League graduate school.
It's unfortunate that some individuals lack personal accountability for reading materials provided to them. It also appears those same individuals did not complete, or otherwise demonstrate commitment to, their education, which undermines their credibility in my opinion.
From WI, 11/04/2009
You have an interesting article, however, I think you are forgetting about some of the lenders that are no longer allowed to administer loans under the student loan programs.
I had my options about where I attended Grad school for my MBA. University of Phoenix was the same price as the state school I was considering and there was no difference in the financial aid package. University of Phoenix was just more convenient in allowing me to work full time while I attended classes, so I did not have to commute 75 miles, one way.
I had full knowledge of the student loans that I would receive.
And if you want to discuss something of consequence. My mortgage lender required me to defer my student loans for at least one year in order for my husband and I to be approved for our loan. The only way to do that was to go back to school. I chose to do the two years so I could at least have something to show for it. So effectively, my mortgage lender required me to go in debt by another $15,000 and increase my loan payments in the future, because they felt my husband's and my income was too low for a $600 mortgage payment.
I learned quite a bit from my education at UOP and am glad that I went there. I had issues with my counselors being changed frequently, but I got a far greater learning experience because the classes were so diverse in culture and in work backgrounds.
From AZ, 11/04/2009
What is interesting with this story is that the journalists purposefully chose this subject because of the potential exposure she could possibly get for "unveiling the truth" about for-profit universities. Give me a break, It's laughable. Is American Public media really hurting that bad for news stories these days? I am assuming sweeps is coming up and she was looking for a nomination. I received my undergrad degree from Northern Arizona University, (A public school in journalism. Fancy that. ) Basic journalism one on one expresses that it is the job of a respected journalist to provide all of the facts before running a story or else it is considered slander and or defamation of character. There are classes based in ethics in reporting and yet the two young women behind this story failed to provide any rebuttal from the accused. What this story also lacks is a comparison model between the cost of traditional v.s. for -profit schools. What you'd be surprised to learn is that several universities hike up tuition almost quarterly. I went to Glendale community college for my associates degree and my tuition rate increased 4 times while in attendance. It was never explained by a finance counselor how the hikes in tuition affected my funding, nor did I have proper help from my academic counselor. As a result, I continued to incorrectly borrow money, as well as take classes that had zilch to do with my associates degree. I learned quickly post community college that it is my responsibility to educate myself in reference to my lending and academic progress. It is pure laziness on behalf of the student to gain understanding. Especially when the University provides individuals capable to answer any and all questions that you may have. I personally am a huge fan of traditional schooling, and it wasn't until recently that I started attending Western International University. (An online for profit educational institution.) WIU is also a subsidiary to Univ of Phoenix. (FYI) I have a dedicated enrollment counselor that has my best interests regarding choosing a masters program to enroll in. I have an academic counselor that has thoroughly explained what classes I will be attending, and a financial counselor that very clearly represented all of the paper work I signed before signing up for fin-aid to help me pursue my masters degree.( Which is pretty dang expensive.) I had a 3 person team that guided me through every step of my enrollment process. One of the young ladies in the story seems only interested in finagling funds from an institution she knows makes money. The aforementioned students exemplify a modern case of ambulance chasers. In their laziness they refuse to accept the responsibility of not researching all of the information before they signed the papers. Furthermore, a lot of students look at the refunds from the loans as free money, and get upset when it is time to pay them back.(The audacity!!! lol) What better way to get even if your upset about repayment than slandering the institution. It is unfortunate that less than 1% is being represented in this story.The only thing being exposed here is your unethical journalism tactics. You should be real proud American Public Media. If you are looking for a journalist with ethics and credentials see my above email address and give me a shout.
From Seattle, WA, 11/04/2009
It is interesting to me that much of the attempted rebuttal toward supporters of University of Phoenix seem to think living in Phoenix automatically means the commenter is an employee of the university.
As a new student to University of Phoenix, one who both knows to read binding documents and knows not to sign one should it contain information with which I do not feel comfortable, I have very little sympathy for those who refuse to learn how to manage either, or to ask questions.
As a technologies professional, I know many graduates of University of Phoenix from around the country. It was this personal experience of the quality of graduates combined with my own research that made the university the choice for me.
This article seems to attempt to convict the university for predatory activities. However, anyone reading finds it clear that the real issue is an irresponsible and all too willing minority who apparently believe that it is acceptable to act in ignorance (be it willful or otherwise) and expect anyone but themselves to deal with the consequences.
Suffice to say, I am profoundly unimpressed with this article (my first read of this outlet) and, if this is what passes as "journalism" here, I suspect it will be my last as well.
From Seattle, WA, 11/04/2009
University of Phoenix may be expensive, but it provides an opportunity for working adults to further their education. I am disappointed to read stories like this because I am a UOP graduate. I feel like my decision to be educated at UOP is being degraded, when if fact, it is the reason for my success.
From Chicago, IL, 11/04/2009
This story seems to be a bit one sided and unbalanced. When an individual is sitting at home with no job or education and has a family to raise, the community college setting may not be the best fit for that person. If that individual is working full-time with a family to raise, then completing their education becomes an obstacle because many schools do not offer the flexibility to attend full time classes while working full time. I can say from experience that most people are not traditional students and I myself was not a traditional student. Not everyone understood the importance of ACT and SAT scores while in high school, so they were not able to attend a traditional state college or university. While University of Phoenix has many executives and professionals who attend classes, there are also many individuals who have never had a chance of going to college because they thought a GED or a low HS grade point average would keep them from doing so. University of Phoenix gives everyone the opportunity to earn a degree from a regionally accredited University and the school works hard to retain and assist students in accomplishing the goal of graduating. Do you need student loans? Yes. Since when has education become free in our nation? I did not get the memo. It is an investment in your future. If someone does not put in 100% into their course work the results will not be as strong. This is the same for any school. UOP has almost half a million students nation wide. One student and a disgruntled employee should not carry the flag that represents this University.
11/04/2009
What is interesting with this story is that the journalists purposefully chose this subject because of the potential exposure she could possibly get for "unveiling the truth" about for-profit universities. Give me a break, It's laughable. Is American Public media really hurting that bad for news stories these days? I am assuming sweeps is coming up and she was looking for a nomination. I received my undergrad degree from Northern Arizona University, (A public school in journalism. Fancy that. ) Basic journalism one on one expresses that it is the job of a respected journalist provide all of the facts before running a story or else it is considered slander and or defamation of character. There are classes based in ethics in reporting and yet the two young women behind this story failed to provide any rebuttal from the accused. What this story also lacks is a comparison model between the cost of traditional v.s. for -profit schools. What you'd be surprised to learn is that several universities hike up tuition almost quarterly. I went to Glendale community college for my associates degree and my tuition rate increased 4 times while in attendance. I was never explained by a finance counselor there how the hikes in tuition affected me funding nor did I not have proper help from my academic counselor, so I continued to incorrectly borrow money, as well as take classes that had zilch to do with my associates degree. I learned quickly post community college that it is my responsibility to educate myself in reference to my lending and academic progress. It is pure laziness on behalf of the student to gain understanding. Especially when the University provides individuals capable to answer and and all questions that you may have.I personally am a huge fan of traditional schooling, and it wasn't until recently that I started attending Western International University. (A for profit educational institution.) WIU is also a subsidiary to Univ of Phoenix. (FYI) I have a dedicated enrollment counselor that has my best interests regarding choosing a masters program to enroll in. I have an academic counselor that has thoroughly explained what classes I will be attending, and a financial counselor that very clearly represented all of the paper work I signed before signing up for fin-aid to help me pursue my masters.( Which is pretty dang expensive.) I had a 3 person team that guided me through every step of my enrollment process. The young lady in the story seems only interested in finagling funds from an institution she knows makes money. The aforementioned students exemplify a modern case of ambulance chasers. In their laziness they refuse to accept the responsibility of not researching all of the information before they signed the papers. Furthermore, a lot of students look at the refunds from the loans as free money, and get upset when it is time to pay them back. What better way to get even if your upset than slandering the institution. It is unfortunate that less than 1% is being represented in this story as the journalist purposefully chose to allow one sentence of rebuttal by the univ of phoenix rebuttal comment. The only thing being exposed here is your unethical journalism tactics. You should be real proud American Public Media. If you are looking for a journalist with ethics and credentials see my above email address and give me a shout.
From Roseville, CA, 11/04/2009
Dear Amy and Sharona,
Good start, but I certainly hope that in your future segments you will also consider reporting on:
1. Lives that have been positively changed from an education at the University of Phoenix
2. Accomplishment of University of Phoenix graduates, some of whom are recognized inventors, authors, entrepreneurs, professionals, etc.
3. The return-on-investment over a lifetime from an education at the University of Phoenix
It is far easier to cast aspersions than to dig for the hard truths. Thoughts?
From Philadelphia, PA, 11/04/2009
I listened to your story last night in compllete dismay. What you purported to be a profile of for-profit higher education instead was a biased and imbalanced piece of reporting aimed squarely at University of Phoenix.
You referenced a small number of disgruntled drop-outs. At the same time you say the school serves 420,000 paying students. HUH?
Check your math. Clearly you misrepresented the quality of education and the integrity of Univ. of Phoenix business practices. You also forgot to mention even one other college by name in your so-called investigation.
From Minneapolis, MN, 11/04/2009
I am the first to get my degree in my family. I am 38 years old and a single parent to 3 young children. When my kids were sleeping at night, I was online educating myself in order to provide a better life for myself. Thank goodness for University of Phoenix. I couldn't have done it without them. Yes I have loans, I knew it going in, but I also have a professional level job and have been promoted and see myself continuing on in my career. I also plan to get my MBA from UOP. My life is better because of University of Phoenix.
From Tulsa, OK, 11/04/2009
I attended the local community college where I grew up. I received almost no assistance in financial or academic counseling. It took me four years to earn a two year associates degree while working 60 hours a week supporting myself. I wasted a considerable amount of money, time and effort because that institution, and others like it, are not equipped or interested in helping students in my situation. Upon enrolling at the University of Phoenix, I was amazed at the modality and method of education that was tailored to helping me balance my education and my career.
Course instruction came from professional fields. These instructors not only succeeded in their field, but also in their education. Each of these instructors had no less than a Masters degree and had plenty of "corn in the crib."
My traditional not-for-profit experience provided instructors in ivory towers who determined what I did or did not need to know. My University of Phoenix experience was much different. These instructors encouraged me to push the educational boundaries and learn beyond the case study. They also had real world experiences with major employers like Hallmark, H&R Bloch, Sprint and the Federal Government.
I earned my Bachelors degree and then went on to earn my Masters degree. I sit in meetings with people who earned their degrees from traditional universities. I see those same good people give presentations and prepare documents that would not pass high school competencies.
I will put my educaton from the University of Phoenix up against anyone's.
From Eaton, IN, 11/04/2009
I have been in student and financial services for the past 25 years at private universities and no matter what school I was employed with the majority of the students did not take the time to read thru the financial documents they were given nor did they ask questions. The majority of the students who end up in collections landed there because they took their financial aid funds and then dropped out. Where in this article did anyone ever address the student’s responsibility for reading, understanding and asking questions about their financial responsibilities? I think it is surprising to see this article label private universities in such a bad light. The only difference between a private and public university is that the private university does not get state funding and uses student tuition to run the university. Same on Marketplace for being so one-sided.
From Foothill Ranch, CA, 11/04/2009
If people do not read the loan documents why is this any different than the clowns who signed sub-prime loans?
Further, take one of my classes, and determine for yourself if it meets standards of academic integrity.
Contrary to Nassirian's comments, I have never seen, or heard of, a keyboarding class masquerading as anything at UoP. In fact, I have never heard of a keyboarding class.
From Sparks, NV, 11/04/2009
I am a proud alum of UOPX and I was not pressured into enrolling. I took responsibility to assure the school's accreditation was up to par and I understood what I was signing upon enrollment. I am thankful for-profit school exist because I cannot attend a traditional university due to my work schedule. I have attended traditional school as well as private-for-profit. There were things I like about both and dislike about both. I will say UOPX delivered a rigor in the classes that I didn't get at the state university. I got my money's worth!
From Boston, MA, 11/04/2009
I find it extremely interesting that many of of the posts questioning the credibility of this article and its sources are from people who post their addresses as Phoenix, AZ and surrounding areas. Truthfully, I agree that students should do their homework in applying for schools. They should be aware of forms they are signing, and they should absolutely check to see if the online university is accredited, and if those degrees are respected or even acknowledged in their fields. Sadly, many employers and recruiters consider these degrees of little value, which is unfortunate for the students who spend time and money to pursue them.
11/04/2009
Interesting information here. According to the linked "ProPublica" article, it states, "....according to a dozen current and former students and two former recruiters who spoke to ProPublica...." Uhh...the school has over 420,000 students and over 17,000 employees according to the company website....so our journalist are basing these claims off of an extremely small, if not limited population base.... good job Amy Scott and Sharona Coutts....if you were in one of my courses journalism or businesses, your article would fail for lack of validity. And no, I'm not on anyone's defense here.
From Phoenix, AZ, 11/04/2009
i have been hearing stories like this about U.O.P. for quite sometime and I personally feel that it is pretty ridiclous. If there is anyway that a student comes to this school and is under the impression that they are getting a "free education" it is through no fault of the University. I am a student and an enrollment counselor as well and I can say that we are held to a strict standad when it comes to giving proper financial advice. Students must select a lender for loans, work the entire cost of school on a financial calculator and apply for federal loans by completing a FAFSA. There is at least 4 places in the application process that students e-sign for the amount of loans that they requested. Not everyone even qualifies for the Pell grant as well so for many students, student loans is the only option. As for the pay scale, I can tell you that it is not solely based on admission. I am held more responsible for student retention. If a student drops out of school within the first 12 weeks, it's just like they were never here. I can say that I have had students that have called and thanked me in tears for helping them achieve thier goals, just like I have had many students put forth zero effort and drop, only to blame the school for not helping them. We live in a society that everyone wants a hand out, and not just a hand up. I am a firm believer that you get what you put in, and I can say that I am getting a real education that will help me long after I leave UOP. I feel that cases like Ms. Rambo are notcommon but may exist. But like the title of the article said"allegations aginst UOP" arte just that, allegations. just remember that when you point a finger at someone you have three more pointing back at you. Do your research and find a program that you can actually attend, pass, as well as afford. And for God's sake stop blaming everyone else for the fact that yop didn't read the loan applications that you signed. Much like the sub-prime mortgage situation, a case of consumer ignorance and lack of personal responsibility.
11/04/2009
This blog is bias and does not have the correct information. All enrollment counselors go over and over and over the finance responsilblity that the student has. If any enrollment counselors lies about anything they would be fired on the spot. Maybe you should check your facts before writing something you have no-clue about.
From Clackamas, OR, 11/04/2009
If you think about it, isn't the whole higher education system a scam? I earned an MBA the hard way, with two years of 10 hour days. The vast majority of the benefit is simply having the letters after one's name so that everyone with the same letters can pat each other on the back. The only thing that the alphabet soup of degrees (the "learned" professions excepted)really guarantees is that the recipient is willing to spend a lot of money enduring great suffering. That probably makes us superior widget workers. The University of Phoenix simply exploits the credentialing house of cards, handing out letters like medieval Catholic indulgences.
11/04/2009
These are humorous stories about the University of Phoenix. Only because none of it holds the student responsible for paying attention to their own finances. When one takes out student loans, the lender chosen sends out numerous financial documents to the student stating what they are responsible for. The enrollment staff at any school is trained to GUIDE the students through the process, not take ownership for the financial choices the student ulitmately makes. If I go to Best Buy and purchase a TV that the sales person labels "state of the art," but I go home and don't know how to use it, how is that their fault? For those reading this article, please understand that this is a small sample of students, who are clearly blaming their ignorance on an institution that provides a top notch education.
From SILVER SPRING, MD, 11/04/2009
Your report should focused on the harsh collection method used by the government to collect the student loan on defaulted student. The interest payment on student loan is beyond the comprehension of many recipients of the loan.Most of the students who default on their loans do not complete the degree at the University (Public or Private) they attended. These defaulted students have no legal recourse to challenge the government or the agency representing the government for collection for the accuracy of the loan in default.Often the amount of the loan in default is inflated two or three times the original amount of the loan for collection. It is no way out for the student.
From Parkwood, IL, 11/04/2009
It's kind of suspect when the folks that are most vigorously defending the University of Phoenix have Phoenix, AZ addresses. Hmm. But I can't say that I agree with either side in this issue. There is a stigma in academia that "for-profit" education is simply a cash cow motivated less by the desire to educate than by greed. That's certainly the pot calling the kettle black. How many of my professors at Northwestern were able to empathize with their starving students? Public, private, for profit or non, every college in the country is raking in the dough. Is there some reason why the undergrad tuition at Harvard is almost $35,000 per academic year? Do students really learn 3 x as much at an 'Ivy League' school as they would at Texas A & M? I have absolutely no qualms with any institute of higher learning charging whatever they want for tuition. What I am concerned about is what kind of future we're going to have if people continue to place a college degree on a pedestal. Or more directly, what will our future look like if we're all too willing to pay for junk? If the price is too high... don't pay it! Caveat emptor!
From Phoenix, AZ, 11/04/2009
I am very disturbed by this article, for several reasons, one it is very biased journalism, the other, it's plagiarized, worse yet, not even from a credible source, from Wikipedia. Clearly the journalist is not educated in their feild or they would be aware of these things.
Further, I have attended several colleges, community colleges (Paradise Valley and South Mountain), I also attended Grand Canyon University for my bachelors, and finished my MBA with the University of Phoenix. I did face classes that I asked myself "where will I use this?", oddly enough through my work experience and life experience that question has been answered. I need to have critical thinking skills to conquer every day life, clearly the student that dropped out only after a class and half struggled in that arena. I would be interested in a follow up interview in the selected candidates of this story to see where they are in their education today.
Finally, for those bashing the thought of "for profit" I must ask, are you aware of what a "for profit" University means? I would recommend doing research before forming an opinion, although completing those foundation classes do tend to teach that skill.
From Phoenix, AZ, 11/04/2009
As an Enrollment Manager for the University of Phoenix, I am always surprised by the level of intelligence or the lack there of by some students. Students are always told that financial aid is consisted of both loans and grants. Give me a break, why the hell would schooling be free. Stupid, absolutely stupid.
From Gilbert, AZ, 11/04/2009
I am extremely disturbed by the novice reporting skills that are shown through this article. I would like to echo and earlier comment and suggest that the reporting be unbiased and balanced. This article is clearly not.
I received my undergraduate degree from Arizona State University and am currently completing my graduate degree with University of Phoenix. I did my research before I began. The degrees obtained from UoP are widely accepted and credited. In addition, many companies are turning to the university as a place for additional professional development as well an educational choice for their employees.
I think "choice" is the word that should be stressed. Education is a choice. Students choose to go to school, they choose to take out student loans, they choose to be successful or to drop out. As a person who has filled out financial aid paperwork on multiple occasions with different universities, be assured that the student should be fully aware that he or she is applying for loans. If the student is not reading the paperwork they are completing and signing, that's on them.
I have had ups and downs in all of my educational pursuits. I can't say that my experience with the University of Phoenix has been any better or worse than my time at a state school. I can assure you that I have worked very hard in every class that I have taken to get my degrees and appreciate the education that I have received from the institutions.
A note to the author - it is very suspect when you decide to make a direct comment about a university and then follow that up with a generalized "for-profit" school remark, opinion or fact!
From Phoenix, AZ, 11/04/2009
I have taught and managed programs for public and private colleges and universities and my experiences have been mixed. I have always thought that private colleges provide an important "niche" in the education marketplace for those men and women who face barriers to attending a public college or university. I believe that everyone who desires to advance their education should have that opportunity. Unfortunately,some for-profit organizations really aren't interested in student success or quality of instruction, it is all about profit. However, some public colleges and universities are guilty of the same.I have seen many low-income students leave two-year programs mired in debt and unlikely to qualify for a job that made the investment justifiable. The answer I believe is somewhere in the middle. Community vocational schools that teach needed career skills at an affordable cost that does not leave students hoelessly in-debt.
From phoenix, AZ, 11/04/2009
All I am saying is don't sign anything you don't understand, and don't sign up for student loans at any school if you are going to decide to drop out.
It is your own fault. Geniuses.
From Phoenix, AZ, 11/04/2009
I think the piece was done in poor taste as well. It seemed to just target the University of Phoenix. There are very few students out their that just pay for school with cash, who doesn't take out student loans for school? That is not UOP's fault. I have many friends who are in crazy school debt who graduated from ASU and UofA, why is a piece not being done on these schools. Of course UOP is going to be receiving the majority of revenue from federal loans, they have three times the amount of students!
When the recession hit not-for profit schools suffered greatly cutting pay, and laying off employees because they relied on government funding. The Apollo Group not only did not cut pay, they were able to keep offering jobs because they are a debt free company. In an economy where job loss is being closely monitored, this seems like a pretty good thing.
I was also amazed that they interviewed a student who was aghast at the lack of quality of education the school had to offer, only to find out that she attended a class and a half and quit. Really? You could not find a student who completed their degree from UOP and asked them what they felt going through the whole program? Or how about some one who got their Undergrad at a not-for profit and then their masters at UOP and compared that?
This is bullying journalism, shame on you Market Place.
From Pittsburgh, PA, 11/04/2009
Oops, "colloquia". After 2 graduate degrees I could at least learn to type.
From Pittsburgh, PA, 11/04/2009
Two things:
1. That "desert island" exercise is an exercie in how to think and how to prioritize. I did this and similar problems in honors collquia as an undergraduate at John Carroll University
near Cleveland OH in the 1970's. (a very good, nonprofit, Jesuit Catholic college BTW). That "what am I going to use this for?" is not unlike the all too typical undergraduate question of "Is this going to be on the final?"
(ie. if it's not, I don't care)
2.I currently work for Everest Institute
in Pittsburgh, PA which is part of Corinthian Colleges Inc. of CA (to UOP, the "competition"). For-profit schools are closely regulated by the PA education authorities as to what we can offer, promise, or promote to prospective students in terms of courses and of financial aid. If we have problems with student retention and defaults, IMHO it's as Harris Miller
said, we get a lot of poor people who if they don't make good choices are going to have trouble academically and financially. We do have many students however who have struggled to get where they are, who work hard and succeed often against huge personal odds, and it is an honor to be part of that success.
From CA, 11/04/2009
This is nothing more than a scheme aimed at bilking millions from the poor who cannot afford it. These degrees, if they happen to actually get one, are WORTHLESS. Employers know exactly the kind of "education" you receive from these diploma mills. Save your money, if you must do an online program, do it with a NOT FOR PROFIT state school.
From portland, OR, 11/04/2009
What about other for profit colleges like ITT TECH, Capella, and so many out there. If they are really bad, let's put stop on them. But I also see for some people this is the only way out in Education terms. May be state colleges are too crowded and less interest from professors.
From Franklin, TN, 11/04/2009
[I am a regular listener to Marketplace on WPLN in Nashville and a regular reader of Pro-Publica and I find the reporting of both to be thought provoking and thoroughly worthwhile.] I think I understand why you have chosen to report this story as you have, emphasizing the possible exploitation of students recruited for enrollment at schools like the University of Phoenix, and I agree that schools have a duty to represent their offerings honestly and to disclose obligations in a clear and forthright manner. By way of disclosure I am currently a student at University of Phoenix (online). I am a retired physician enrolled as a Masters degree student in Healthcare Administration and Medical Informatics. I also have a student loan which will amount to about $35,000 by the time I graduate.
I had reservations at first about choosing this particular route for my additional education (meant to prepare me for a second career in furthering the goals of healthcare reform), but I did so because of the flexibility that online education provides. I have been very pleasantly surprised to find that the entire experience has been excellent so far. The teachers have been committed to the students' education, the syllabi and infrastructure have been first rate, the reading materials have been well chosen and extremely thorough, and my classmates highly motivated and active in the online environment. I have every expectation that my goals will be well met by the program.
I am at a loss to understand how anyone can think that a college education, be it at the Associates, Bachelors or higher degree level would not require a financial outlay in the order of what the University of Phoenix charges. More surprising to me is the attitude that one can form a valid opinion about the value of an education after "one and a half courses". For those of you unfamiliar with the curriculum, that is only 7-8 weeks of class! Incidentally, exercises like the desert island one described above are intended to make you THINK and are standard fare in leadership courses and I'll bet even in the basic courses at Harvard Business School.
Higher education represents a serious investment. Many of the beginning students at University of Phoenix and related institutions would have never had a chance to embark on the path were it not for schools like this. The school offers extensive and excellent support services such as workshops, tutorials, and actual tutors for students having difficulties. The students are expected, though, to have the maturity to do their work as assigned and to seek help when needed, just like at any other school.
I will be proud to tell colleagues where I got my degree, and I would hire a University of Phoenix graduate in a heartbeat if they were otherwise suitable.
11/04/2009
I have always thought that the for-profit colleges should not be allowed federal student aid money. It goes against the spirit of education.
From CA, 11/03/2009
This is all quite interesting. How about the not-for-profit schools?
In our state (California) we saw traditional college enrollments capped because of a statewide budget crisis.
In what other business would the answer to not having enough money be "turn away more customers?" It's because of the huge subsidies
Are taxpayers (paying subsidies), students (burdened by student loan debt) or society (with over-trained but unemployable workers) benefited by these massive expenditures? Remember, even those who are included in the huge number of dropouts annually must still pay back their loans.
I'd love to see Marketplace to a cost/benefit analysis on all of this to find the answer.
From Chicago, IL, 11/03/2009
Disclosure. I work for Apollo Group and completed my Masters at University of Phoenix.
I also completed my undergrad at a small, private, Catholic University, St. Norbert College.
A student gets out of an education what they put in. I had plenty of classes at my liberal arts college that I deemed "useless" and thought "what am I going to get out of this"
I thought the same about classes for my Masters.
In the end you realize, you were taught those things for a reason, even if they were not evident at the time.
The difference I've seen is that because it's for profit, students seem to have an attitude that if they don't see the point, they should get a refund. If they don't feel like doing the work, they should get a refund.
If you sign up for University of Phoenix, and treat it serious, you will get a serious education. If you sign up and put in little effort, yeah, you may end up with a degree and little education, but guess what, I know plenty of people from St. Norbert like that too.
and guess what? I still have more of a loan from St. Norbert than I do UOP. A higher ed degree costs money, and incurs debt. And if you flunk out, shame on you. Is that news?
I only hope that I show I love and listen to daily, Marketplace, has enough sense to report on the other side of the story and realize this is about supply and demand.
If community and state colleges had the capacity and flexibility to enroll the people who are going to places like Phoenix, they would. The problem is they are all bankrupted by state governments.
From Los Gatos, CA, 11/03/2009
Sadly, there are a lot of for profit and not for profit schools who are out for themselves and not the students. Beyond total disclosure in costs and financing, schools should have to disclose the NPV of their degrees. Too many people are paying too much for educations which they will never be able to pay for, whether its a liberal arts degree from a prestigious college or a culinary degree..
From Phoenix, AZ, 11/03/2009
The number of companies that reimburse or accept education from these schools is rapidly shrinking. The ROI is low.
I can't believe that some of these places can claim to offer PhD programs. A doctorate should represent a level of mastery, justified by research, study and publication.
11/03/2009
Interesting... those most vehement in defense of UofPhoenix would seem by their comments to be current or former employees of same. They stopped just short of using "we" in their defense. As far as current or former students posting defenses of the company, well, I guess they didn't major in English or anything promoting their writing/language skills, skills inestimably important in securing and retaining a decent job. I truly see the value of online educational opportunities, but the issue is, what is actually offered compared to what is promised, and at what cost. If you can receive a "degree" from one of these institutions, but nobody accepts it in the job market, what have you spent your time and money for? Ultimately, it's about not promising a life of filet mignon and serving up a greasy burger at the filet price (while laughing your way to the bank).
From Redlands, CA, 11/03/2009
Thank you for this important story. I teach at a community college and at a private (non-profit) university in southern California. I have had many students who were survivors of University of Phoenix and similar institutions, stuck with sizable debts and degrees that are despised by the academic and professional world.
From Phoenix, AZ, 11/03/2009
So much for unbiased journalism. Not one part of the article showed the other side of the story. At least the comments seemed genuine. Whether you approve of the school or not, if you are a true journalist you should be reporting UNBIASED news, not your personal opinions.
From Elmhurst, NY, 11/03/2009
I believe what Marketplace is trying to report on is the shady practice they use to recruit and fleece the students. As far as the teacher/course/quality of education - all depends on the student, just like any other school as long as they finish it there since none of the credits are transferable.
From joshua, TX, 11/03/2009
I am a University of Phoenix student and let me assure you. I have worked very on my courses. An my instructors expect my best work. I went to several campuses before I signed up for U of P. An those campus asked the same question that phoenix did. So its not just Phoenix that out for the money.
From Los Angeles, CA, 11/03/2009
This is an uninformed report. We accept for-profit hospitals and health care providers. In fact, half the country is up in arms over the notion that the government might compete with them. Most people believe that government run programs = waste, fraud and abuse.
And yet, in the education context, somehow the situation is reversed? Community colleges are sacrosanct and private competitors are fraudulent.
Think about it this way: most for-profit colleges report operating margins of around 20%. Do you think a private company could run a college 20% more efficiently than a public institution? If so, you should be a supporter of this industry.
From Orange, CA, 11/03/2009
I taught part time (as do all UP teachers) at UP for two years. My experience was that UP is a fraud. If you my 9 page detailed article about it then request at dchittenden@socal.rr.com
From Kansas City, MO, 11/03/2009
Marketplace, Please be careful in how you discredit for-profit schools. Not all have such low graduation stats as UoP. There are a lot of for-profit colleges that truly do change the lives of their students for the better. A lot of these students would not have a chance at college any other way. Articles like these are detrimental to all for-profit schools and individuals looking to improve their lives with education when you make such generalizations.
From Minneapolis, MN, 11/03/2009
I went there for 1 class back in 2004. And OMG! After that first class I canceled my association with that company, and I mean company. The class was worthless, the teacher was horrible, and I learned nothing. They take the fact that all the students are remote, and completely push you through the classes to get a piece of paper that is worth nothing. In leaving I had a conversation with someone that worked for the business, and I told him everything on my mind. A waste of time and money. When anyone asks me about going to that school, or if they are talking about going to the school I try my best to talk them out of it. That place is completely a waste.
From Milan, MI, 11/03/2009
If I recall correctly, the subsidized-lending scandal is not limited to for-profit or even to private institutions, and the problem of misleading class descriptions is more likely to be fixed at a for-profit school than at a public or non-profit school where tenure prevents teachers from being fired even for cause (as we've seen in some public elementary and secondary schools across the country recently).
From Phoeinix, AZ, 11/03/2009
I am a former employee, "Enrollment Counselor" of The University of Phoenix. I would like to express my disgust with the manipulative and exploitative practices in which we were trained.
From San Francisco, CA, 11/03/2009
I thought the name of your program was Marketplace? In a marketplace, consumers make choices. The University of Phoenix complies with all FTC guidelines and state regulations and is audited aggressively by the Department of Education Inspector General. UOP's instructors use syllabi and employ adjunct professors that are shared by state and not-for-profit private schools -- that's why they share comparable accreditations.
The reporting was lazy and biased,and added nothing new or relevant to the public's understanding of higher education. I'm disappointed that Marketplace would choose to collaborate with an organization like Pro Publica that wears its anti-capitalist bias on its sleeve. Was the conclusion of the story ever in doubt even before the reporting began?
From Washington, DC, 11/03/2009
Although apparently, I did not remember one of the basic lessons of elementary school - check your work! "Course."
From Pittsburgh, PA, 11/03/2009
I remember having the same "desert island" exercise in graduate business school that Katherine Clark dismissed as not useful. The exercise puts you in a survival scenario and asks you to select the most important things to keep from a long list. The important lesson, which either Katherine was not taught or did not understand, was to first ask and answer the big, strategic question- are you going to stay on the island, or are you going to try to leave. Only after you learn to ask the right question does the rest of the exercise make any sense. Maybe Katherine not getting that lesson means that her education dollars were not well spent.
From Washington, DC, 11/03/2009
I have to disagree with the perceptions that were stated by some of the people you interviewed for this story. I started my business degree at a traditional university back in the early 90s, but could not work a full-time job and continue attending. I went back and completed my degree at the Univeristy of Phoenix in 2004, due largely in part to the flexiblity of their "online" campus. Although rapid paced, the 3rd and 4th year classes I took required a good bit of work, and seemed equivalent to the 3rd and 4th year classes I took at U of H. I would guess Clark's experience is typical of someone who decides to drop out after "a couse and a half," and who thinks it is a good idea to put their tuition on a credit card. Maybe for balance, you should interview some people who completed their degrees and paid back their loans and see whether or not they think they got their money's worth? Like any school, I think you get back what you put into it.
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