Examining U of Phoenix recruitment
The University of Phoenix is fighting a lawsuit claiming it ripped taxpayers off by billions of dollars. Marketplace's Amy Scott and Sharona Coutts of ProPublica get info from a former Phoenix recruiter in the last of a two-part series.
University of Phoenix (getdegreetoday.com)
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Jewel Calderon, 21.
TEXT OF STORY
Kai Ryssdal: President Obama turned to education today. He dangled $5 billion in grant money in front of states that are willing to line up their priorities with his. That's K-through-12 education, of course. Yesterday we were talking about higher education. For-profit higher ed, specifically. The biggest for- profit university in the country -- the University of Phoenix -- is fighting a lawsuit. The suit says the school cheated taxpayers out of billions of dollars. Money that came from federal student loans. It's just the latest in a series of claims that for-profit schools use deceptive tactics to sign people up. Our story reported by Marketplace's Amy Scott and Sharona Coutts of ProPublica continues now. Here's Amy.
AMY SCOTT: It might start with a click on a banner ad. Or maybe an online competition to win an iPod. You fill out some personal information. And then the calls start.
KATHERINE CLARK: They were very persistent.
TERESA BARRON: She called me every day.
DANIEL RAY: I legitimately got three or four calls a day for about two weeks until I finally talked to him.
Katherine Clark, Teresa Barron, and Daniel Ray are just three of the many students around the country who tell a similar story. They've been hounded by enrollment counselors from for-profit colleges. Anyone familiar with the sales profession will recognize some of their hard-sell tactics.
But ProPublica and Marketplace have uncovered several instances where recruiters crossed the line. One tactic: win the target's trust.
CLARK: We would e-mail constantly throughout the day, text message, talk on the phone.
Kat Clark was a student at the University of Phoenix in Long Beach, Calif.
At first, she had a great relationship with her enrollment counselor.
CLARK: We had barbecues and stuff together.
Scott: Did you feel that the friendship was genuine?
CLARK: Yeah, I don't really think it was like a genuine thing, I think it was more of a, this is my job and I'll do anything to make sure that I get paid.
Enrollment counselors do get paid based at least in part on how many students they sign up. And how long those students keep coming to class. That's legal, as long as pay isn't solely based on recruitment. The company says frequent contact with students is about supporting them.
Bill Pepicello is the university's president.
BILL PEPICELLO: Certainly we want the students to believe that we are acting in their best interests, but it's certainly not by developing personal relationships.
But another student told us a University of Phoenix counselor buttered up her grandmother.
Jewel Calderon lived in Fayetteville, N.C. She says the counselor told her he and grandma had what he called "church" over phone.
JEWEL CALDERON: He said he prayed with her over the phone, and he told her his mother was sick, and that they prayed about that. And he gained her trust, which made me gain his trust, and that's why I decided on that college as opposed to others.
Calderon ended up taking out close to $12,000 in government loans. When she and other students started having problems with the school, the friendships they'd developed with counselors evaporate.
Brandon Burke lives in Portland, Ore.
Until last December, he worked as an enrollment counselor at the University of Phoenix. He says managers taught him and his colleagues a number of strategies to trick students into signing up. One ploy was to create a "sense of urgency."
BRANDON BURKE: One thing we would be told to do is call up a student who was on the fence and say, all right, I've only got one seat left. I need to know right now if you need me to save this for you. Well, that wasn't true.
In the training session, Burke says staff asked the manager what to do if that student showed up for class, and there were only six or seven people there.
<BURKE: And the manager said, well you tell them that the class got so full that we had to split it.
Scott: So you were basically told to lie?
Burke: Yeah. We were told to lie.
Burke wasn't the only counselor we spoke to who says managers told them to lie. And we've learned Phoenix isn't the only for-profit school that's used these tactics. Brandon Burke says managers encouraged him to bend the truth in other ways, too.
BURKE: People would say you know I saw the CSI, and I want to do that.
CSI: I got three GSWs. One to the left kidney area, one to the left thigh.
Burke says he got frequent calls from fans of the popular TV show. He says supervisors told him to steer them to the criminal justice program. That might qualify them to work as prison guards. But not as forensic criminologists. But one of the biggest complaints students had was that counselors misled them about credits.
BURKE: One of the things that we were told to do was, you say we are regionally accredited, which means they're transferable anywhere, which isn't true. They're eligible for transferability.
In fact, it's up to each school to decide whose credits they accept. And in many cases, University of Phoenix credits don't transfer. Burke says he never misled students. He left the company in disgust. Two former counselors from another campus sued the university, claiming they were pressured to sign students up.
Last week, the company announced it expects to cough up more than $80 million to settle that case. But the University says it doesn't train its counselors to lie or to mislead students.
Harris Miller is CEO of the Career College Association, an industry lobby group. He chalks any wrongdoing up to a few rogue employees.
HARRIS MILLER: If these accusations are correct than the appropriate authorities should investigate them. And if it's true, then my response is hang 'em high.
Miller says higher education is a heavily regulated industry with oversight by federal and state authorities, as well as private accreditors.
MILLER: The fact of the matter is we're educating over two million students. And focusing on a few wild allegations, and a few documented instances of violations of the law, is not the way to describe the career college sector.
But the sector has been in trouble before. In the early 90s, the government cracked down on hundreds of for-profit trade schools for abusing student-aid programs.
Barmak Nassirian represents college admissions officers. He sees many of the same abuses today.
BARMAK NASSIRIAN: The M.O. has not changed over the years. We have one step at a time over the course of the past 15 years removed all of the provisions that together momentarily cleaned the system up.
Congress and the Department of Education are looking at the rules again. The Obama administration wants more people to go to college. Congress poured more than $15 billion in stimulus money into college grants. Advocates welcome the investment in higher ed. But they also want change.
They say without it, the system will continue to benefit for-profit companies more than the students they're supposed to help.
With Sharona Coutts of ProPublica, I'm Amy Scott for Marketplace.
Comments
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From Phoenix, AZ, 11/19/2009
The University of Phoenix functions under a culture or fear and intimidation. Students are intimidated into signing up of extra classes which are not related to their specialization whereas staff if intmidated into trying to sign up prospective students by hook or by crook. The faculty is not spared either and professional teachers who try to give the student�s their money�s worth in education are often sidelined and insted preference is given to those who indulge in brown nosing the administration, even if these teachers may not be good teachers and get poor reviews from the students. This is not the opinion of one but many teachers who give up valuable time from their high paying professions, to help adult students in their quest for higher education, even at low monetary teaching compensations.
From Cleveland, OH, 11/18/2009
Unfortunately, there are dishonest people at every single workplace. Those who use misleading tactics to get ahead should be disciplined or fired. However, I can ensure you this is not the standard practice at the University of Phoenix.
Additionally, why are there no reports being done on colleges that are not accredited? How unfortunate that there are so many students being mislead by unaccredited colleges, thinking they are getting a valid education, only to find out that their credits are basically worthless when they are looking to transfer to another college or apply for jobs. ProPublica, tell the whole story.
11/15/2009
I've heard comments on both sides of this issue. I am one of those who had a generally good experience with UoP, and for the most part I would say that my classmates had and equally beneficial experiences. This is a profit driven enterprise, so we should not be surprised to learn that the University's objectives are to enroll as many students as possible. I won't say that my experience with the school was flawless, and I saw a few red flags here and there while enrolled, but for the most part the academic content offered and the work that I put forth to earn my degree were relevant to my management position with the Fortune 100 company that helped me pay for it through tuition reimbursement. I did not hear any interviews with any of the thousands of students like me who understood from day one how the school works and what was expected of all parties involved in our education.
This leaves me somewhat skeptical of the validity of this report.
From Ft. Worth, TX, 11/10/2009
My MSC/School Counseling came from UOP in the Denver area, and I have nothing good to say about them--except that I got a good education. Unfortunately, with their reputation, outside of Denver area schools, employers are not taking my degree seriously.
From Severn, MD, 11/10/2009
To Katherine Hamilton: I think it is equally "terrifying" how someone with no apparent experience in a matter can make judgments on that matter based on a biased story. Why are you terrified to hear both sides of a story? Are you terrified of getting to the truth?
The main issue of the story was about students saddled with student loans and some pressure sales techniques. If there are problems with the recruitment and financial programs, they need to be dealt with, and my understanding is that they are. The government is involved and there are civil lawsuits that will sort all that out.
The story by Marketplace only referred to a few disgruntled students and a few disaffected employees. Go back and read it if you find more than that. I also saw a couple of other people, not from UOP, make generic comments.
If you want the whole story, the real story, talk to the quarter of a million UOP students, the entire business staff, and the 20,000 faculty, not just a few from each category. I guarantee you will hear some horror stories. You will hear a lot more success stories from students, staff who enjoy what they do and who spend a lot of time and energy helping students and supporting the institution, and faculty who love seeing people learn.
You're already spending a lot of money on publicly-funded universities in your state and all the others. They can't handle more students, and don't want to, even if they had more money. They are selective in who they 'allow' to take advantage of that taxpayer money. At UOP, anyone can try, and personal accountability for the cost of trying rests clearly with the students. "They made me do it" is a pathetic excuse. If they lied to you, file a lawsuit; that seems to be the method of avoiding personal accountability for many things today. But don't blame anyone else because you didn't know what you were signing.
University of Phoenix is a school just like any other, except it doesn't rely on taxpayers funding the entire school. Students fund the school through their tuition, and they are responsible for managing that in the best way for them. If there are employees doing something wrong, they need to be held accountable, too. But you don't banish for-profit schools to create a monopoly on education for the privileged few just because a few staff did something wrong or a few students didn't succeed or didn't like their experiences.
I have nothing to do with University of Phoenix's financial operations, recruitment, or anything other than teaching in the classroom and my experiences as a student. I had a few Academic Counselors and two Financial Counselors in addition to my recruiter when I started the program. Every one of them did everything they could to explain the processes, the timelines, and anything I needed to succeed. They supported me even after they'd gotten my tuition money, all the way to the end of my program. then they met me at graduation and told me how proud they were of me.
This story was not news, it was a story. It wasn't journalism and it didn't describe the practices or experiences hundreds of thousands of students, staff, and faculty who are proud to work for UOP. I Am A Phoenix!
From Houston, TX, 11/09/2009
Unfortunately, UofP is not the only school that practices these tactics. Interactive Learning Systems does the same. I have been an Admissions representative at this school for about a month and the pressure tactics are absurd! Pressuring low income students into applying for financial aid - and then financing the unfunded balance. I am turning in my resignation today.... My conscious will not allow me to work here any longer.
From Aurora, IL, 11/09/2009
I was a past UOP employee and received my MBA from them as well. I worked for the university for nearly three years (virtually unheard of because of the high turnover rates). I was promoted to manger and made visits to UOP’s corporate offices in Phoenix, Arizona. As such, I have seen both sides of Apollo Groups’ business. This organization places an extreme amount of pressure on their employees’ to enroll students (what you are hearing is all-true). UOP uses a pay for performance review process known as the “Matrix.” Although it shows many measurements for reviewing an employees’ performance, the only two measurements that count are (1) the number of applications that are filled out (a complete application must include the student’s financing choices) and (2) the number of students that start classes. The university calls these measurements the “keep your job numbers.” Unfortunately, this organization is not entirely “above board”. I have kept many of the emails that have coached advisors and managers alike to use unscrupulous tactics for enrolling students. When I read the replies to this news story that defend UOP, a part of me wonders if these replies may not be “planted responses” from the school. They have a history of doing these types of things. A year or two ago, the university under went a campaign to clean up its image by purchasing the infamous site www.uopsucks.com. and shutting it down. Shortly afterwards, they purchased most of the “UOP” real estate on YouTube. A year or so ago, a person could perform a UOP search on YouTube and find countless disgruntled employees and students. Nowadays, the first 50 or more hits are nothing but UOP ads. When I read the comments in defense of UOP, I understand the student’s desire to stand up for their alma mater. The last thing a person wants to do is trash the degree they just spent tens of thousands of dollars receiving. As a fellow alumnus, I would rather not discuss the quality of a UOP degree. However, I will share a quick anecdote. A fellow student once came to me before class and asked me if I thought the skills being taught were worth the money. I had no answer, as I try not to lie. In closing I will say that the commentary shared by past enrollment counselors from UOP is true based on my experiences, and (like many of my peers), I have kept the emails to prove it.
11/08/2009
What law firm represented Brandon Burke in his law suite against U of Phoenix?
Thanks.
Keith
From Atlanta, GA, 11/08/2009
I am currently at U of P for my masters degree and have had none of these problems documented in either part of this story. My enrollment counselor did not pressure me into attending the school, but merely answered all my questions with patience and thoroughness. I was told from the very beginning that the classes would require work and dedication, which they have, and that if I needed a more structured learning environment I would be better suited to go to school elsewhere. She stressed that I shouldn't start school unless I was sure I wanted to finish my degree program. My enrollment counselor wanted to be sure that I understood what I was getting into and that I wanted to continue. It's naive to believe that getting a degree can be something easily achieved in your spare time; getting a degree from a college, including U of P, takes effort, time and energy. You have to understand that since students aren't physically sitting in a classroom, more work has to be given to make up for the time spent in a traditional classroom. I have a group of people (my counselors) who call me frequently to ask how my classes are going and solicit any questions or concerns. I get more attention from my counselors at U of P than I ever got from the private, liberal arts college I received my BA from. There are occasions when the contact from my counselors can be quite irritating, but it just shows me that they care how I am doing and want to ensure that I continue to do well. I understand that some people might have had negative experiences, I have not. It's not been perfect, but no experience ever is.
From Peyton, CO, 11/07/2009
I have view the many comments left on this story both positive and negative, especially the negative. Some people may have had a good experience at UOP but many people such as myself have had a very bad experience. UOP uses manipulation to get students to enroll, they used it on me and many others. After dealing with UOP I felt helpless and taken advantage of, but ProPublica helped me to voice my opinion and warn other prospective students about the tactics that some schools will take to get what they want. After attending UOP for almost a year I honestly think that this institution should be shut down or they will continue to prey on the innocent.
From Miford, NH, 11/06/2009
I can attest with student admission counselors at these schools buddying up to potential students to gain their trust. Last year, I applied to DeVry University. When my counselor thought she had me in, she would start acting like my buddy listening to my stories, laughing at my jokes, etc. When I withdrew, that 'friendship' dissolved. I had called her when I found another school to go to (SUNY Empire State College), and the response was cold. She was happy for me but just wanted me off her line as soon as possible. After you leave, they don't want anything to do with you. They throw you out in the alley and move on to the next person.
11/06/2009
For a response to the University of Phoenix’s criticism of this reporting project, click on the link to Propublica in the “Links” box above.
From NJ, 11/05/2009
A few years ago, I made the decision to go back to school and finish my degree.My work schedule constantly changes which makes it difficult to attend classes in a traditional classroom. So I figure online classes would be perfect for me. UoP was one of the schools I looked at but I chose a different school because they had a better program for my major. I'm glad I did not end up at UoP, not because I think the education they provide is bad, but because of the stigma that comes with it. I have friends who have taken classes there and the coursework is definitely more rigorous than what I experienced at the school I attended on campus. There are several other options out there for online learning besides UoP. I am in the process of transferring to a school that is closer to home and whose name will look much better on my degree than some random school on the other side of the country. So many non-profit schools now have online programs. Just takes a little research to find the right one for you. I should add, I never felt hounded by UoP. Sure they may have called a few time, but that's what caller ID is for. And when I found the right school, that's when I picked up the phone and told them I found a school. There are a couple of other for profit schools that called me every night to hound me, way more than UoP. I think Ashford University was the worst. The not-for profit schools never harassed me, and that's where I ended up.
From AL, 11/05/2009
Wonderful report, Market Place!
It is no secret that when education institutions become “for profit,” all the problems start. Pressuring students to get in is the common problematic practice at all “for profit” private ones.
Those “for profit” instititions, such as UOP and ITT and many many other local ones, are making money from students’ tuition, and they have to do all they can to squeeze profit out of students!-it is just a hard factor! No one can deny or hide it.
From VA, 11/05/2009
This story is 100% correct. A couple of months ago I found another job and put in a two week notice and they pressure you to make these calls and create a "sense of urgency." 100% true!!!
From Pasadena, CA, 11/05/2009
After graduating from University of Phoenix with a Bachelor of Science in Business Administration in 1994 I was accepted into Loyola Law School, and am now a partner at a national firm. Thank you University of Phoenix for my education without which I would not be who or where I am today.
From Knoxville, TN, 11/05/2009
UOP's Rebuttal : University of Phoenix Responds to Marketplace’s “Allegations Against University of
Phoenix Persist,” November 3, 2009
Marketplace yesterday aired an uncharacteristic piece of journalism for the highly
regarded American Public Media – a wholly imbalanced, subjective, salacious story
about University of Phoenix. This type of hit-and-run journalism ordinarily would not air
on the likes of Marketplace, so why did it? In an unusual move, Marketplace outsourced
its investigative reporting to ProPublica, a partisan and experimental investigative
newsroom known for “muckraking tactics” and “hatchet jobs.” For more on what others
are saying about ProPublica, click here and for a Capital Research Center report critical
of ProPublica, click here.
Evidently in the eyes of ProPublica, University of Phoenix’s for-profit – as in free market
– model negates our social agenda to increase access to higher education and is cause to
categorically reject every positive piece of factual information provided by University of
Phoenix. Refusing to be deterred by the facts, which are provided below, ProPublica
produced – and Marketplace aired – a two-part series founded on nothing more than a
series of anecdotes from five of our 17,000 employees (.03 percent of our employee
population) and from 12 of our 443,000 students (.0027 percent of our student
population).
We referred ProPublica to thousands of positive stories from University of Phoenix
students; they were ignored. We shared the results of our most recent student satisfaction
surveys, which range from the 90 to 96th percentile; they were discarded. We offered a
tour of any of our enrollment facilities across the country in order to observe our
enrollment counselors at work; it was snubbed. We suggested ProPublica anonymously
call any of our thousands of enrollment counselors to test the enrollment-related
allegations of students to be featured in their story; if calls were made, they did not
support ProPublica’s story and were cast aside. University of Phoenix requested that
ProPublica obtain Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act (FERPA) releases for any
students to be featured in its story so that we could research and respond to specific
student situations; they refused to do so, legally prohibiting us from providing our side of
the story.
ProPublica has tarnished the degrees of nontraditional students served by University of
Phoenix – those students who need to work full-time and/or raise a family while
attending school, many of whom are minorities, first generation college students, single
parents and active duty military personnel. University of Phoenix is providing options
and opportunities, which otherwise would not exist for our students, and at a time when
our conventional public system of higher education is proving increasingly untenable and inaccessible. Marketplace should be ashamed.
The Facts
ProPublica: Phoenix isn’t the only school that profits from the stream of federal student aid. But it’s the single biggest recipient.
Fact: Financial aid is awarded to students, not institutions, who may take their financial aid to any institution of their choosing should they be admitted. Given the size of University of Phoenix’s student population – more than 440,000 students today, dispersed across hundreds of campuses and learning centers across the country as well as online – as a group, they are the largest recipient of federal financial aid in the country. Our students are the most honest arbiters of our academic quality and they will always be the final arbiters of where they wish to spend their tuition dollars.
ProPublica: It turns out the enrollment counselors at the University of Phoenix get paid in part based on how many students they recruit.
Fact: Just as academic institutions are entitled to pay teachers based upon how well they teach, grade students based upon how well they perform, and pay executives based upon the school’s success, so too is it entirely appropriate and lawful for schools to pay recruiters in part based upon how well they perform their job – i.e., recruit students. Indeed, this is a basic premise of American industry, and was recently confirmed by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. As the Court noted, if academic institutions could not pay recruiters based upon their ability to recruit students, “you could never have any performance criteria for that particular job” and it would be the “one job where they can’t consider how well you’re doing your job.” Any other view would be antithetical to American industry.
ProPublica: The for-profit industry says about 60 percent of its students graduate from two-year programs. The University of Phoenix says its rate is less than half that.
Fact: University of Phoenix’s graduation rates are comparable to national averages: 27 percent of our students graduate at the associate degree level, which is the same as the national rate; 38 percent of our students graduate at the bachelor’s level, compared to 43 percent nationally; and 60 percent of our students graduate at the graduate level versus 61 percent nationally. But the real story that should have been told is that in a comparison of students who enter college with “risk factors” that often contribute to their dropping out, University of Phoenix’s rates of completion for a bachelor’s degree are substantially higher than for institutions overall.
ProPublica: But whether students drop out or graduate, they still leave school burdened with debt. And it’s debt they can’t escape.
Fact: Our student debt loads are within national averages compared to both public and private, non-profit four-year colleges and universities, with our students averaging between $14,200-25,221 in loans compared to the national average of $13,266-26,208 as reported by the Institute for College Access and Success’ October 2008 report, Student Debt and the Class of 2007. Our default rate has consistently remained below the national average for comparable schools. University of Phoenix’s official FY 2007 cohort default rate of 9.3 percent, as published by the U.S. Department of Education, remains below the national average of 9.8 percent for comparable schools (4+ years) and below the national average of 11.0 percent for all proprietary schools combined. While this is a 29 percent increase over our previous year rate of 7.2 percent, default rates increased for all types of schools – public, private, and proprietary, as well as 4-year and 2-year alike. The FY 2007 national student loan cohort default rate increased to 6.7 percent, up from 5.2 percent, also a 29 percent increase over the 2006 rate.
ProPublica: The taxpayer actually makes money from the interest on these loans. But critics of the system say students often lose out. Not only are they deep in debt, they don't always have much to show for it.
Fact: University of Phoenix graduates earn significant increases in their personal income as a result of their degrees. In 2008, graduates of our associate degree programs earned an average increase of 19 percent in their personal income; graduates of our bachelor’s degree programs earned an average increase of 28 percent in their personal income; and our master’s degree program graduates earned an average increase of 25 percent in their personal income[1]. ProPublica: Clark didn’t qualify for federal student aid. So she paid some of the bill with credit cards. The rest she owes to a private lender, Sallie Mae. Fact: University of Phoenix made the deliberate decision not to engage in private lending because we believed it was not in the best interests of our students. For Fiscal Year 2009, private loans accounted for less than 1 percent of parent Apollo Group’s net revenue. ProPublica: The Apollo Group, which owns the University of Phoenix, made just shy of half-a-billion dollars in profit last year. But Barmak Nassirian says no one’s keeping a close eye on the quality of the education for-profit schools like Phoenix provide.
Fact: University of Phoenix is committed to transparency in our educational operations and welcomes regulatory examination. In fact, we are one of, if not the most, examined institution in the country. Since our inception, University of Phoenix has participated in 30 accreditation
[1] As self-reported by students to University of Phoenix Institutional Research (2004-08)
visits by regional accrediting bodies, 35 evaluations by state education agencies, and undergone 10 administrative reviews by U.S. Department of Education. At our last Higher Learning Commission accreditation visit, University of Phoenix was awarded a 10-year grant of accreditation – the longest period of time for which an institution can receive approval without an interim review visit. University of Phoenix is committed to academic excellence. We are required to meet the same standards for academic quality as conventional four-year colleges and universities and, as a for-profit institution, meet the highest of regulatory requirements. The university is regionally accredited by the Higher Learning Commission and is a member of the North Central Association, one of six regional accrediting bodies considered to be the gold standard of accreditation. Regional accreditation is every bit as rigorous for University of Phoenix as it is for the other colleges and universities accredited by the North Central Association, which include Northwestern University, University of Notre Dame, University of Michigan, Ohio State University and University of Arizona, to name a few.
From San Ramon, CA, 11/05/2009
I am a faculty member for University of Phoenix Online. I have been teaching online for UOP for almost 8 years.
I agree that some students should not be recruited or retained. I have students in my classes who have been cheated out of an education, but not by University of Phoenix. I teach entry-level classes for Axia College and many in-coming students are functionally illiterate, but they all have High School dipolomas or GEDs from school districts that passed them up the line without giving them a decent education. I feel sorry for these students, but I have never been asked to inflate their grades or pass them when they could not meet my grading standards.
University of Phoenix provides grading rubrics, but each instructor determines how to grade his or her classes; so these could vary quite a bit from teacher to teacher. There's a saying among UOP instructors called "TOI," or The Other Instructor. That's the instructor students compare us to when we give them a low grade or don't accept late assignments. "Oh, my other instructors all gave me A's. My other instructors all let me make up assignments. etc." We like to think that TOI is a figment of students' imaginations, but with 20,000 instructors working full or part time for University of Phoenix, there probably are some TOI's in the bunch.
Most of us are conscientious and want do the best job for our students. Some students should not be in college and need serious remedial help. Others work hard and improve and get their degree. And still others are sharp and bright and could do the work at any big name University, but choose UOP online for convenience.
The education they get, at least in the two-year Axia College program, is equivalent to most Community Colleges. It's somewhere between college and vocational school or a stepping stone to a BA degree. Students who graduate with an AA or a BA may not be equivalent to students who graduate Harvard or U C Berkeley, or University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, or Colby College in Maine, but it's a good, solid education and preparation for a career in a field with more opportunities for growth than Walmart or Wendy's.
Most of these students would not have the opportunity to get a degree or a higher education any other way. UOP offers opportunity, but not a free ride.
Roz
From Seal Beach, CA, 11/05/2009
I would also like to add, for Gina Myers- Who and what gives you the right to judge a person who was trying to get an education? By saying that person has other failings in their life and that's why they don't qualitfy ( have you not recognized that EVERYONE is suffering right now with this economy?), and that my expectation of education is unrealistic. I'll have you know I work along side 2 University of Phoenix graudates who both had a good experience. Unfortunatly I fell short of such experiences and am the last person to accuse a school being terrible before experiencing it myself. I was given false pretences from my "enrollment councelor" who I made clear to that I did not understand the way Loans or Aids worked. Thinking your in the hands of people you can trust with not only your education but mostly your money.. That was not the case. I was pressured to sign up for my education ( which was the poitn and wanted to start anyway) and was given strict instructions to fill out my paperwork for my loan. Determined to start school, I agree'd. To keep in mind also, I specifically told them I would like to handle my own finances, I was given no such responsibility. They took it upon themselves to handle the finances themselves (illegal), putting me into a bind and not knowing where and what was happening with my money. So just because you're a graduate and have an amazing job, doesn't mean that everyone will follow in such footsteps. Thank you for your insight, but I have a wonderful job with out a 4 or 2 year degree. My education doesn't need to come from a piece of paper at this point, that will come down the line when I do more research and find a school that actually cares about their students, and not what they can get out of them financially. I respect Propublica and marketplace for giving students like myself the opprtunity to speak out- not just to the public to get criticized, but just for the chance to speak out such frustration- and to have someone actually listen.
From Seal Beach, CA, 11/05/2009
UOP has a 14% graduating success for a reason.
From Farmington, UT, 11/05/2009
As a student of U of Phx who is about to graduate in the upcoming year, I can assure you that the education level, the rigor of the class work, the strictness of policy, and ultimately the knowledge gained during my time at Phx far outweighs any problems associated with sales or recruiting.
I was recruited, but Phx fitted my lifestyle. As a father of four, working full time in my own business, I appreciated being able to take classes at night. As an entrepreneur, I have loved being able to apply all of my knowledge gained in every class to specific situations I was facing at the time. As a person who loves democracy and capitalism, why not use sales as a means of expanding your business? I like that Phx is a for-profit institution. It means they are going to attempt to satisfy their customer, the student. And most of the students I have met in my 3 years have enjoyed Phx and worked hard for the grades they have received.
This story is lame at best, and a sorry excuse for journalism. Statistically, a sample of 4 is not a very good sample if you are going to create any kind of confidence in the answers you are going to receive.
From Bay Area, CA, 11/05/2009
I think back on my conversations with the gentleman that recruited me to U of P and can honestly say that yes he certainly sold me on some things. As a pospective student this was an approach that was much more aggressive than other universities, but the professional approach is partly what appealed to me. The fact the U of P had their stuff together made the logisitcs of matricualtion simple and direct. In other schools this is not the case. I should know - this is my seventh University experience.
Either way its important to realize that an education is what one makes of it. I am certain there are people in my classes who have cheated, or have relied on the skills of their team members to get them through, or who maybe even got "tricked" into having student debt. The unfortunate reality of our education system is that this happens in plenty of places.
My main concern, as I look to attend some more elite schools for graduate school, is that the accreditation is tarnished, and that students and staff from other universities underestimate the challenge and value of involved education through the U of P or similar facilities.
The integrity of the education is not helped by this recent story. Do I think its true for many stuidents - no, but I am concerned none the less. In fact I have contacted several potential graduate schools to be sure that they will accept my credentials from this program - if they say no or indicate favoritsm toward a more traditional method, than that may be the path I have to take.
I appreciate the alert, as much as I might dislike hearing it. I am willing to bet that there is more than a grain of truth to this story, and that has me second guessing my decision... maybe that's why I am so darn mad that it has been published and publicized.
From Tempe, AZ, 11/05/2009
(Disclaimer: current employee of UOPX)
My entire professional career, beginning in 1988, has been in the Student Financial Aid industry. I've been employed by questionable institutions, exemplary institutions and those that just coasted by without making waves - all for-profit institutions and all providing instruction that, at the time, was unavailable at public institutions in the state of Arizona. I've been a trainer for the U.S. Department of Education, I've participated in independent and OIG audits and I've received countless hours of training in the field (prior to employment at UOPX.)
All that is prelude to say that my training and experiences at UOPX lead me to understand that the institution, while pushing the boundaries of educational delivery, is very conservative about how they administer Federal Student Financial Aid and is more likely to interpret ED regulations more strictly than necessary. Because the number of employees is so high and the message must remain consistent, all new employees are trained to this conservative standard.
I'd also like to relay some anecdotal information about some of my students and how their training has commenced. Some commenters (purported instructors of UOPX) have said they've been instructed to give passing grades to substandard work but I talk to real students every day who work their tails off to complete papers that, in the end, receive poor grades for everything from improper formatting or bad grammar or incorrect grasp of the subject to plagiarism. Yes. All these things are thoroughly checked and accounted for and our students are not getting away with substandard work. This is no diploma mill.
As for those students who indicated they had no idea they had borrowed to pay their tuition, it's hard to argue with the lender's disclosure statements that arrive in the mail. Or the required Entrance Interview that explains a borrower's rights and responsibilites. Even if the student never spoke with a Finance Counselor (unlikely at UOPX) there are plenty of documents received by students that are very clear about a student's borrowing. As for the other student (Clark) who indicated that she was ineligible for student aid, I would imagine that her ineligibility might be related to other failings in her life that had nothing to do with the University and that her expectation of education was unrealistic. If UOPX was training to a specific task, we'd be more likely to ask what temperature the oil needs to be in the fat fryer at McDonald's to cook the perfect French Fry. Instead, we ask a student to THINK - a skill that is highly valued by potential employers.
In short, this reporter has missed the mark and done NPR listeners and readers a disservice by providing biased and incomplete information.
From Atlanta, GA, 11/05/2009
First of all, I do not like the fact that the media likes to slam a college that has opened many doors for me. I'm a recent graduate of UOP and I work for a multi-billion dollar company. I learned how to work in real-world situations which I have been able to carry into my current job as an IT Professional. What is wonderful about being an alumni from UOP is that I will have access online to everything I learned indefinitely. Online learning is the wave of the future. We do not live in the dinosaur age anymore. I will agree that the prices are a bit on the high side, but what college is not expensive. They are all the same in my book as far as fees, but as far as my learning, I have learned more because I didn't have to drive to a school; therefore, I had more time to study and focus on my career. It gives options to those people who do not live near a college. I work full-time and I am a full-time mother of a 2 year old, so if I can do it, anybody can.
From Tulsa, OK, 11/05/2009
I just did some research to find out where ProPublica gets its funding. Very interesting. Very ideologically driven. Very Biased. And definitely NOT journalism. I will never contribute money to National Public Radio again - as long as they are taking "news stories" from ProPublica. You should be ashamed of yourselves.
From Aiken, SC, 11/05/2009
I am a graduate of the University of Phoenix and was not surprised over this article. Over my years as a student there I worked with a number of staff members that informed me that they worked either off commission or were looking for cheap education and then they would be gone. The turn-over was far greater than I expected and over my years there worked with about 6 different people just in the financial department.
I would have to say that my tuition seemed to constantly rise while attending UOP and my educational debt was about $50,000 (guess I am not average). I had great experiences and some not so great experiences, but I left with more than I could have imagined. My salary is over 50% more than I made prior to my degree, and the opportunities that I did not have before are now available to me.
I am proud to be a UOP alumni but even prouder to be able to walk away with a degree that I worked very hard to earn. I feel the school has room for improvement but what school doesn’t. I would recommend that the school evaluate their practices and look to get back to the basics of providing a great education to those who can not attend a conventional school setting.
From Norfolk, VA, 11/05/2009
As a professor at one of the "for-profits," I have seen this abuse over and over again. I have seen managers tell faculty to inflate or change a student's grade in the name of retention regardless of whether or not the student learns anything. If professors complain about the practice, they will be called "elitist" or told they are not being "student centered." Faculty do not dare complain about this or they will be fired (we do not have the privilege of tenure or unions). In this economy, faculty are afraid to speak out (note I am not using my real name). There need to be many more stories like this. Perhaps the regional accrediting agencies will finally get involved.
From Spokane, WA, 11/05/2009
If you want to know the real story on this supposed story, follow this link http://www.upxnewsroom.com/record/
11/05/2009
It is funny to me how people can say whatever they need to say as "former employees" when their lawyers tell them what gets the big bucks. I noticed you used the verbiage "bury them." If you expect me not to believe you are not biased then you are crazy or really bitter about life in general. Regarding students and staff defending the school...who else would you have do it since they are the only people who have had an experience to draw from? I think you made my point for me by saying that. The only people making commentary are people who have no idea what they are talking about and will believe anything they read. Maybe if you went to UOPX, you could learn to use spell check like all the other students and not spell disgruntled incorrectly.
From Moraga, CA, 11/04/2009
It's both terrifying and revealing how select respondents to rather scathing allegations either 1) hold a serious conflict of interest by either attending or teaching at University of Phoenix, and 2) irresponsibly minimize the practices revealed by former employees.
"...it is ultimately the consumer's responsibility to act in his best interests." This assumes that students are provided accurate and legally mandated information PRIOR to initiating coursework.
"A few disaffected students representing a mere sliver of the total student and graduate population, along with a couple of disaffected former employees, hardly a scandal make." And you're a Ph.D. from UOP...figures. The main issue contained in the allegations stem from UOP inside staff- trained in the skill of hunting down, trapping prospective students-lying to under/low educated individuals and families about aspects of UOP's programs. These aren't disgrundled students; these are paid staff.
Bury them; expand admissions and campuses at public institutions and redirect the loans and funding for underfunded public programs.
From Chicago, IL, 11/04/2009
The truth is that all schools have a somewhat shady side to them. My wife went for a masters online at U of Phoenix and she had a good experience. I also think that many schools are threatened by their success. I went to a brick and mortar for my MBA and still think there is a value education online. Eventually, people will be more accepting of the degree and it will have more value with employers. Its too bad that bad things like this are coming to light however, but I am sure there are many other stories like this at other more respected schools as well. Education is a good thing and worth paying for. Also U of P also has brick and mortar schools. I think in general Marketplace is made up of elitist snobs. You should all just get your economics news from NPR's Planet Money. It has totally eclipsed market place which now means basically nothing to me.
11/04/2009
Thank you for delivering this important caution to prospective students and their parents. As the operator of a for-profit training school I am very sensitive to this issue and watch with horror the abusive practices of some for-profits. When the emphasis is on sales and "counselors" are rewarded with commissions it is almost inevitable that the interests of students will not be a concern of the counselors. Sales, not education, will be their prime mission. I don't pay my staff this way and any school that does should be viewed with suspicion. To prey on vulnerable students, misleading them to take on large debts is unconscionable. Just another example of profit-mad operating philosophies like the ones that brought about the sub-prime crisis.
From MD, 11/04/2009
This is a sad excuse for journalism, and you should be ashamed of yourselves for procuring and accepting it. University of Phoenix has had plenty of official government and unofficial public scrutiny, as well as a number of accreditation visits by established educators. Get all the facts and do the whole story, or don't do any of it at all!
For-profit universities make their money from their students. Without the money and the profits, there wouldn't be a university for the nearly 1/2 million students at UOP. Public universities make their money from the taxpayers - all of them. But public universities only let in students who have a good chance of graduating. UOP lets anyone take a shot at bettering themselves through a strong education. Funny how UOP has close to the same success rate with open admissions as public universities do with selective admissions.
I am a graduate of UOP's doctoral program, and I can tell you the curriculum was as rigorous as any of the other universities I attended over the years. I am also a faculty member at UOP and at a public university. The quality and standards are just as high at both universities, although UOP has more quality control of and more stringent standards for faculty than the public university.
A few disaffected students representing a mere sliver of the total student and graduate population, along with a couple of disaffected former employees, hardly a scandal make. I could find the same percentage of people to complain about any religion, public institution, or private corporation. It doesn't translate to the whole.
From Orlando, FL, 11/04/2009
Although it is regrettable this piece focuses solely on the University of Phoenix, I think that overall it will strengthen their enrollment practices. I am currently getting my MBA on-ground and have had only positive experiences with my enrollment, financial, and academic counselors. I believe that has been the case for the majority of students in my program. As with anything else, it is ultimately the consumer's responsibility to act in his best interests.
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